Custody officer job withdrawn for GC beliefs - Gribbon (SP legal team) is his solicitor

[InterrobangsArePureBias]

I wonder how many more of such actions will be launched. To adapt Jimmy Doyle’s phrase, “the spectacle of this nation’s [lanyard classes] enforcing moral auto-lobotomy as a condition of entry to [employment]”.

A prison custody officer who was sacked for saying he would not address male-born transgender inmates as ‘she’ or ‘her’ has launched legal action against one of the UK’s largest security firms.
Army veteran David Toshack, 50, was dismissed by GEOAmey during a training course only days before taking up a role as a prison custody officer (PCO) at Kirkcaldy Sheriff Court.
The father of three told a safeguarding workshop that he would not be comfortable using a transgender inmates’ preferred gender pronouns and expressed his belief that a man could not become a woman.
It sparked a horrified reaction from bosses at the firm, which employs thousands of justice workers across the UK, who said his views were against the law and company policy.
…
He said: ‘I’m just a normal, working class person who’s never been in trouble with the law before, not got a criminal record, lived a good life. I’ve been prepared to go and fight and die for my country, and then I have come back here and been told that there’s certain things you can’t think or can’t say.’

https://archive.is/bxjqC

Original story about David Toshack in Daily Mail: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14963309/Prison-custody-officer-sacked-refusing-call-male-born-trans-prisoners-her.html

TT hasn't repeated what she said about pat down every day, I hope the reporter caught it and will report it.

LL - to spoke to residential manager, said I was expected to
DH - will come back to that. The expectation s changed?
LL - yes, i didn't have to search that prisoner
DH - did other members of senior staff raise that you raised it?
LL - someone asked if something had happened

LL - I said no it was me, going forward I wasn't comfortable.
DH - nobody at SPS said not acceptable?
LL - not at that time
DH - mention meeting with POA union and manager had you spokend to union before
LL - yes *
DH - there was an expectaiton to search as if woman, changed

DH - after you raised it, exception made, did you discuss with union?
LL - didn't know I could, as far as I knew I could object bad sound
DH - what do you understand the impact of the local verbal agreement to be
LL - it's that local staff volunteer to search T prisoners
LL - but nobody had told me that was the case when I joined.

MM - morning. you ref your beliefs, what are they?
LL - m and m and women are w and you can't change sex or gender
MM - how longbelived
LL - always
MM - when you started working in prison
LL - 2021
MM - HMPDH?
LL - yes

I really hope so 🤞🏼

MM - from time to time you searched the TP?
LL - yes
MM - treated as woman
LL - yes
MM - was your understanding you should
LL - yes
MM - pg99. SPS doc, policy on TP in custody, seen?
LL - yes
MM - broadly, search, PP everything TW will be treated as women by PCO
LL - yes

MM - contrary to your beliefs, but you did search that prisoner
LL - yes
MM - in the SC decision, you mention clarification and SSspaces. EQA case?
LL - yes
MM - handed down in April 25, did you hear about it?
LL - yes
MM - what was your understanding

So the prison officers were discussing FWS Judgement a lot, so clearly they are concerned and don't agree with the SPS policy.

MM trying to split hairs about searching a TIM is not a SSS, LL replied it is within a SSS. 👏

LL - in SS spaces, it means sex not GI
MM - pleased?
LL - a relief
MM - 6 month gap till you raised it, said no issue with the TP, why did it take you 6 months to say something
LL - april 25 was long term sick, went back in June 25, a lot of talk about, we didn't know what SPS

LL - would do, waiting for clarification from ScotGov on SSspaces.
MM - what gave you clarity in Oct
LL - had waited quite a while, before SC couldn't raise SPS policy, didn't want to be seen as transphobic, but because SC ruling it aligned with my views but seemed law

MM - debate continues to rage, SSspaces aren't searches draw the line
LL - search is done in a SS environment, in the cell
MM - local agreement, union coming in next, you say agreement was between union and management, that's all you know?
LL - asked my MP, should there be more info

Did anyone else catch MM say change in law ....
and LL - Clarification
I'm sure that's what was said. If so, very nice correction by LL (and take note MM!)

I gave her a cheer at that bit and a “take that, wanker” to MM.

LL - he said everyone was in agreement and it was never written down.
MM - the shop steward ?? dod you know when agreement happened?
LL - couple of years before I arrived when T prisoner arrived. Before my time
MM - nobody mentioned it?
LL - no, no manager, not the intro I got

LL - said TWAW
MM - did you have any interaction with shop stewards?
LL - yes, yes
MM- on anygiven day in HMPDH, what's the capacity
LL - 53 female prisoners I think
MM - on a shift how many officers
LL - 4 and a manager
???
LL - yes
MM - do you know which managers agreed?

So basically the SPS are expecting the female prison officers to pat down TIM's everyday. I would imagine the TIM's enjoy that very much.

FFS I am so angry.😡😡😡

LL - no.
MM - no more

DH - pg606 email from you?
LL - yes
DH - to Mr Ly?? and devlin
LL - firstline manager and rep ???
DH - page 601, 10th oct, response within the hour, Mr L, ???? that's what you were told.
LL - yes

J - that's fine, you can leave. Mr Fearly (?)
DH - yes

Miss Harvey to give evidence this afternoon.

Yes but, unless I am misinterpreting, the actual prison staff are quietly ignoring the policy and doing things their own way, without writing anything down?

DH - my last witness.
J - do we have any R witnesses?
MM - we have SH lined up for 1:30
J - think Mr F will be short, SH after lunch, running well ahead of time, maybe we can move to mysterious issue this afternoon?
DH - yes, though may be next week.

Yep Ireland the Female and Male POs said sack us or let the TIM go to court and test the employee exemption in the EA to get a Court order.

Females PO did the TIMa top and swapped out with Male POs to do the bottom.

Nobody got sacked

TIM continued to complain to the Prison Visitors but no Court action.

Prisioners have an actual get out of jail card for that there have been cases over yard time and prison activities

TT seems to be really struggling with the accent as words and abbreviations are wrong. They should try to get a Scot on their team then!

To be fair the sound quality is really bad today.

We will use MF for Mr Fearly, if no first name is given.

Affirms. checks social use.

DH - hello, name
MF - mark fairlie
DH - job
MF - prison office assn
DH - top of the tree
MF - lead scotland
DH - how long
MF - 6 years

DH - roles
MF - lists senior prison roles in Prison Officer Association very hard to hear
DH - where based
MF - lanarkshire
DH - were a PCO yourself?
MF - yes from Jan 1980
DH - qu on POA involvement, on this policy, generally first, SPS policy doc for staff. One of many

I think LL said some would volunteer. But they shouldn't have to do the searches at all.

I can't make out a word this witness is saying.

DH - generally what would POA generally input to policy docs such as this issued by SPS
MF - docs are generally agreed between SPS, at the table earlier in process to put our views on what would be good policy.
DH - early stages, possibly later review? involved till issued?

MF - normally whole way through, not all
DH - POA will sign off policies it is involved in?
PF (PHIL FAIRLIE) - unions all come to table together and do it
DH - all policies
PH - no
DH - over the years in your experience, proportion signed off?
PH - when POA need to input on

That is the current police policy. They ask around F staff to see if they'll do it and if no-one says yes, they get a male. It's very coercive imo

the sound quality is really bad for the witnesses. I’ve struggled with all 3 today.