Custody officer job withdrawn for GC beliefs - Gribbon (SP legal team) is his solicitor

[InterrobangsArePureBias]

I wonder how many more of such actions will be launched. To adapt Jimmy Doyle’s phrase, “the spectacle of this nation’s [lanyard classes] enforcing moral auto-lobotomy as a condition of entry to [employment]”.

A prison custody officer who was sacked for saying he would not address male-born transgender inmates as ‘she’ or ‘her’ has launched legal action against one of the UK’s largest security firms.
Army veteran David Toshack, 50, was dismissed by GEOAmey during a training course only days before taking up a role as a prison custody officer (PCO) at Kirkcaldy Sheriff Court.
The father of three told a safeguarding workshop that he would not be comfortable using a transgender inmates’ preferred gender pronouns and expressed his belief that a man could not become a woman.
It sparked a horrified reaction from bosses at the firm, which employs thousands of justice workers across the UK, who said his views were against the law and company policy.
…
He said: ‘I’m just a normal, working class person who’s never been in trouble with the law before, not got a criminal record, lived a good life. I’ve been prepared to go and fight and die for my country, and then I have come back here and been told that there’s certain things you can’t think or can’t say.’

https://archive.is/bxjqC

Original story about David Toshack in Daily Mail: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14963309/Prison-custody-officer-sacked-refusing-call-male-born-trans-prisoners-her.html

PH - operational issues.
DH - policy which goes to management of TP in custody, dated Dec 2023, did POA have discussions on this one at input stage
PH - contributed to policy, had difficulty ...concerns from membership.... (SORRY hopeless sound)
DH - why was that
PH members raised concerns

PF - about searching, being asked to search TP prisoners, had to get to a position where we could resolve that
DH - dialogue with members, what were the concerns
PF - their own trauma history, concern about being in that position, intimate searches.
DH - input from members, other

DH - discussion in POA on this issue?
PF - took legal advice
DH - at officer level was it discussed on committee?
PF - we discussed what we were picking up from members, not just employed to do, but ideological concerns too. ???
DH - physical concern, female staff?
PF - y

If those female Staff members would happily search any other male prisoner then I have no objection in principle to them searching TiMs. But the fear of reprisals or being labelled as bigoted might be influencing some of the volunteers and that is definitely an issue.

If you are listening in, is it the accents/the sound quality/both that is causing the problem?

The current witness is just mumbling but the sound has been bad all morning.

Mainly the sound quality for me. There is lots of interference and the witnesses are significantly quieter than DH and MM

DH - extract from a longer doc 671-2, see POA scot conference, how oftne a conference?
PF - yearly
DH - it's a report?
PF - yes ????
DH - highlighted extract, 672, part of report transcript of comments, on issue of searching T prisoners, particularly from union side
DH - who is JIm McKay?

PF -??? cross talk ??? POA scotland has national committee, UK one too.
DH - policy doc is a national one. evidence of incidents of local agreements. One site there's one on searching T prisoners. What's your understanding?
PF - no formal agreements, some cases local

PF - understanding, aware of Greenock and ??? picked up there were discussions when trying to agree policy. Where staff had concerns, it was agreed.
DH - you mention Greenock, aware of other informal agreements?
PF - thought it was informal, asked heard there were other examples

PF - wanted to be certain.
DH - you made enquiries? evidence is?
PF - did that because of anecdotes, because asked to come here, wanted to ask the qu.
DH - part of POA function is assisting members, in disciplinary for eg?
PF - yes
DH - any POA members disciplined by SPS for
DH - objection to searching T prisoners
PF - not that I'm aware.

MM - you were involved in early stages, but from feedback didn't sign off, does the POA not recognise it?
PF - no, SPS has right to do that, but union ?????
MM - you say there were belief issues among indiv

MM - M and females health safety and dignity
PF - yes
MM - policy '23 no suggestion members shouldn't follow
PF - if there was difficulty see rep
MM - in respect of beliefs?????
PF - yes, in terms of policy
MM - there's no nation union policy?
PF - no
MM - local understanding

LOST A TWEET [Not me - this is what TT tweeted]

MM - any discussion between SPS and union since FWS, SCS decsion?
???
MM - agreement in POlmont is around searching?
PF - yes
J - which other unions involved
PF - PCS and PGA
J - claim is a PCO employed by GA, are they eligible to join yours?
PF - yes

J - even if employed indirectly to transport
PF - yes
J - any re-examination?
DH - no
J - you can leave, we will break now and return after lunch. In terms of timetable, 3 hours?
MM - 2, or 2 1/2
DH - one from me?
J - OK don't want to go part heard over the wkend, back at half 1.

Was it just my wishful thinking or did MM sound a bit dejected at the end of his x-exam?

This is all of TT tweets from part two of this morning

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/2017194230549266460.html

I haven't read to the end of the thread, but!
Has the employer a definite policy that the gender of the prisoner is to be recorded in the "sex" line? Or is the line on the form titled "gender"? Noone has made that clear so far, iirc. Aldo, are they talking about prisoners with a GRC, or self-identified ones?

If they only have a gender tick box on their form then they have bigger problems than the wrongspeech of an employee.

Sexual harrassment case for LL and all the other women who were told she had no choice rather than the local agreement was Opt IN

GA is running a self ID policy.

And MM alludes that the the M/F box is to capture TW/TM/NB and the freeform box would include PP
She/Zer/Her Royalness...

Did MM hint that SH is going to testify that one of the reasons they use PP is because there was an incident where a TP kicked off because they were misgendered?

I really hope this is the case...

Once again working class women suffering the consequences of gender ideology

From TT

We believe the next witness will be Sarah Harvey, ITC Trainer

MM how long did you work there?
SH about 8 years
MM So you did the ITC
SH yes
MM describe what’s involved

I think SH identifies as empathetic.

SH collecting prisoners etc
MM typical vehicle ?
SH two prisoners. One driver, other officers
MM next job?
SH I requested to go part time, back into education. Also documentation.

MM involved in reviewing or drafting policies?
SH yes but then goes to a panel
MM what qualifications?
SH counselling. Complex cases, mental health concerns, I felt knowledge, education would help

MM next move?
SH logistics, collection, appointments. Presentation of. Researching, publishing documentation of serious incidents, assault, self harm

I do think that it’s awful that female wardens have been expected to intimately search TW. And I know someone has said up thread that some women may be relaxed searching both men and women but I think it feels different if you know that it’s a man who’s expressly asked to be searched by a women - which is the case with these TW.

MM any dialogue across SPS?
SH Yes some contracts info
MM safeguarding ?
SH yes a couple of years. A cluster of locations, travel time. Ensuring staff across. Interested in standards across locations.

SH safeguarding team, compliance, we conduct any investigations internally or externally for the SPS. Assaults on staff, escapes, self harm

MM have you received training for Safeguarding?
SH yes including for transgender. Based on the management of transgender.
J - who delivered the training?
SH SPS
MM p 99 ..

SH yes training based on
MM 2024 document
SH yes
MM look at p 220 2024 description. What involvement do you have?
SH I created this document
MM physically drafted it?
SH yes
MM reference the GRA I take it policies incorporated ?
SH yes

MM p 224 transgender must be allowed to adopt and addressed by us as the gender they identify. This is your drafting?
SH yes

MM p 226. Rights for T people . The risks associated - can you describe?
SH self harm. Showing signs of, or harassed access , needs to identified as. Seen examples of where this hasn’t been followed and causes escalation.
MM for example?
SH self harm to themselves. Also officers are sat either side of the prisoner and reference to prisoner unfortunately assaulted officers

MM p 451. Trans woman here. Name she wishes to be known by. Legal name goes in and name goes in as alias sound unclear

MM 7 January 2025. Session training this first session. Had you met Toshack before?
SH no

MM your presentation you showed. During the session, an exchange between yourself and Mr Toshack. How did it start?
SH each of these points and the one referring to transgender women. He had some views and a strong opinion.

MM what did you say?
SH I said need to treat with respect.

MM what did he say?
SH he didn’t agree.
MM was he ??? (Sound issues )
SH not to begin with. TW not women. I said we are governed by prison service.
MM did DT mention his beliefs or religion at this point?
SH can’t remember

MM how are you feeling at this stage of the conversation?
SH new officers coming into the business; I referenced again the terms , was he happy to comply. I felt we had explored it as much as we could at that point

MM what next?
SH I talked to HR business partners that this had happened. I asked my training manager.
MM they were somewhere else int he building? What made you decide to speak to them?
SH I had concerns about people in our care, concerns may not be met

MM you had your conversation
SH I made them aware. Can be one on one. I had concerns about treatment, a large cohort in that class.

MM you came out meeting in canteen Susan Pollock meeting.
SH other comments . He’d refused. Various comments.
MM did you know Stephan Weir said no such comments made against you?
J give me a description of the room

SH size of this?
MM packed in like sardines then would be difficult not the hear comments
SH comments made me uncomfortable

SH not appropriate to inaudible
MM what did you do after?
SH back to main

So it was SH that was offended. Probably at being challenged over the document that she created.