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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #25

1000 replies

nauticant · 20/04/2025 08:15

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access. However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24

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33
macaroonmayhem · 21/04/2025 21:25

Just seen on my LinkedIn that NHS Fife are looming for two new Board Members - anyone fancy it??

“Fife NHS Board is looking for two new members to join its Board. We are looking for one member with finance, audit and risk experience and one member who will serve as our Non-Executive Whistleblowing Champion.”

Whistleblowing champion! 😂

BeLemonNow · 21/04/2025 21:25

I wouldn't say totalitarian but...there were several mainstream news headlines during the ET saying Sandie Peggie had "admitted harassment". All she had done was, in the context of female changing facilities, described her discomfort of Dr. Upton being male. She agreed it might have been harassment according to policy. It was chilling.

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #25
macaroonmayhem · 21/04/2025 21:25

Looking, not looming….

Annascaul · 21/04/2025 21:31

BeLemonNow · 21/04/2025 21:25

I wouldn't say totalitarian but...there were several mainstream news headlines during the ET saying Sandie Peggie had "admitted harassment". All she had done was, in the context of female changing facilities, described her discomfort of Dr. Upton being male. She agreed it might have been harassment according to policy. It was chilling.

Policy which insists you accept an alternate reality shouldn’t be upheld in a court of law.

Conxis · 21/04/2025 22:04

macaroonmayhem · 21/04/2025 21:25

Just seen on my LinkedIn that NHS Fife are looming for two new Board Members - anyone fancy it??

“Fife NHS Board is looking for two new members to join its Board. We are looking for one member with finance, audit and risk experience and one member who will serve as our Non-Executive Whistleblowing Champion.”

Whistleblowing champion! 😂

I snorted and spat my tea out at that!!!

nebulousMoose · 21/04/2025 22:22

Conxis · 21/04/2025 22:04

I snorted and spat my tea out at that!!!

You're not the only one ... I would've spat out my tea if I had been drinking it.

How about a little ditty ...
Whistle whistle whistle whistle whistle blowing champion,
whistle whistle whistle whistle whistle blowing champion,
whistle blowing whistle blowing whistle whistle whee!
Take your whistle to the boss,
She'll see that you don't suffer loss,
Something wrong? You will be heard,
You won't be made to look absurd,
You won't be forced out of your job,
You'll have no need to cry or sob.
Whistle blowing whistle blowing whistle blowing champion,
she will help you make your case,
she won't be throwing damp on
If only she had been there when
You needed someone to listén.

Whistle whistle whistle whistle whistle whistle whisss.

Appalonia · 21/04/2025 22:43

CandyLeBonBon · 21/04/2025 01:03

Fantastic summary from everyone so far, thankyou. I’m staggered this is where we are. It’s like something out of black mirror!

Black Mirror seems pretty tame compared to the horror show we've been living through these last few years tbh!

Appalonia · 21/04/2025 22:52

nauticant · 21/04/2025 09:46

It's better than that Conxis. If NHS Fife weren't providing a counter to Sandie Peggie's case that she could continue with, then, unless she was saying outlandish things, it would be the uncontested version that most likely the panel would use in making their decision.

The way NHS Fife have run their case would have been effective against just a little person with scant means and not much support. However, not only would it seem that Sandie Peggie's means are effectively unlimited, the adjournment has proved to be extremely unfortunate to NHS Fife in terms of the law having moved on in a hugely significant way that is to their detriment.

Hoisted by their own petard springs to mind ( due to their incompetence and obfiscating).

on a side note, I never thought at the time of studying Shakespeare all those years ago, that that phrase would come in so handy. I seem to have used it a lot these past few years...!😂

WithSilverBells · 21/04/2025 23:00

prh47bridge · 21/04/2025 17:21

Belief in transubstantiation is regarded as cogent, notwithstanding the fact that it is empirically provable that the bread and wine do not become flesh and blood. So the fact that a man still has an empirically provable male body does not prevent his belief that he is a woman from being cogent.

As per my earlier post, a man believing he is a woman is almost certainly WORIADS. The bar for a belief to not be WORIADS is very high. Unless you can show that a man believing he is a woman is on the same level as Nazism or espousing totalitarianism, that belief is WORIADS.

How about if the belief includes forcing non-believers to (outwardly) appear to agree with the belief?

prh47bridge · 21/04/2025 23:22

WithSilverBells · 21/04/2025 23:00

How about if the belief includes forcing non-believers to (outwardly) appear to agree with the belief?

That is still nowhere near enough to make it not WORIADS. If they proposed genocide to remove all women, that would not be WORIADS. As long as they stay away from that, GI beliefs are almost certainly protected.

Annascaul · 21/04/2025 23:24

prh47bridge · 21/04/2025 23:22

That is still nowhere near enough to make it not WORIADS. If they proposed genocide to remove all women, that would not be WORIADS. As long as they stay away from that, GI beliefs are almost certainly protected.

Why wouldn’t it?
No religions are legally permitted to force the general public to become believers against their will.
This would be the same thing, surely?

Conxis · 21/04/2025 23:33

@AnnascaulI also wonder about enforcing this hierarchy of beliefs in a workplace.
I am not muslim but respect a colleagues right to hold Muslim beliefs but I don’t have to say Allahu Akbar if they say it to me.
So someone can respect a colleagues right to believe they are a woman but can they be forced to call them she if that is not their held belief?

TriesNotToBeCynical · 21/04/2025 23:34

Annascaul · 21/04/2025 23:24

Why wouldn’t it?
No religions are legally permitted to force the general public to become believers against their will.
This would be the same thing, surely?

Several religions would like to; it's up to civil society to resist this.

prh47bridge · 21/04/2025 23:35

Annascaul · 21/04/2025 23:24

Why wouldn’t it?
No religions are legally permitted to force the general public to become believers against their will.
This would be the same thing, surely?

They want you to stop using male pronouns to refer to trans women. From the point of view of the courts, that is no different to saying that you can't use certain words to refer to black people. They aren't forcing you to become believers. They just want you to avoid language that they consider hateful, just as some religions want you to avoid language that they consider hateful. And bluntly, if you pursue this path and try to get the courts to rule that GI is not a protected belief, it will be an absolute gift to them. You will fail and they will be able to use it as evidence that you are transphobic.

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 21/04/2025 23:47

If a trans woman is accommodated on a men's ward, does that turn it into a unisex third space?

😉 I might be beginning to warm to the concept of third spaces 😉

prh47bridge · 21/04/2025 23:49

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 21/04/2025 23:47

If a trans woman is accommodated on a men's ward, does that turn it into a unisex third space?

😉 I might be beginning to warm to the concept of third spaces 😉

Edited

Based on the Supreme Court ruling, I would say no. It is a still a single sex space for men.

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 21/04/2025 23:50

prh47bridge · 21/04/2025 23:49

Based on the Supreme Court ruling, I would say no. It is a still a single sex space for men.

Curses, I though I had found the solution

Annascaul · 21/04/2025 23:54

prh47bridge · 21/04/2025 23:35

They want you to stop using male pronouns to refer to trans women. From the point of view of the courts, that is no different to saying that you can't use certain words to refer to black people. They aren't forcing you to become believers. They just want you to avoid language that they consider hateful, just as some religions want you to avoid language that they consider hateful. And bluntly, if you pursue this path and try to get the courts to rule that GI is not a protected belief, it will be an absolute gift to them. You will fail and they will be able to use it as evidence that you are transphobic.

Seems bizarre. Using correct sex pronouns is in no way akin to using derogatory terms for black people.

WithSilverBells · 21/04/2025 23:57

Annascaul · 21/04/2025 23:54

Seems bizarre. Using correct sex pronouns is in no way akin to using derogatory terms for black people.

I agree. Also, it is one thing to request that I don't use male pronouns to refer to a TW, but it is something different to insist that I do use female pronouns to refer to someone that the court has ruled is biologically male. That is compelling me to speak a lie

SPAG edit

fanOfBen · 22/04/2025 01:51

Naomi Cunningham went there in her summary at the end of the UCU case - according to TT she said "GI does not operate covertly like many forms of discrim. TB says it is surprising that the counter belief is intolerant. It is assumed
that GI itself is WORIADS. That doesn't come before this tribunal but I suspect that the presumption that GI is WORIADs is difficult to sustain given that it is wholly intolerant of any dissent and operates rabidly in the public domain.". Maybe she'll be up for arguing that it isn't in some case where that's needed, in which case I will be all ears!

BezMills · 22/04/2025 03:04

I guess you can tell me not to say X, and if I like you I will try. Like I have a young (female) friend who is a they/themmer. She wouldn't like it if I use she/her, and to the limited extent it comes up in her presence, I try to avoid pronouning her at all. Because I am not really going to start using fancy pronouns, I just don't wanna, but I also don't want to make her uncomfortable.
When whe's not present, like now, I just use she/her.

WandaSiri · 22/04/2025 07:01

I think it depends how GII is framed.

Some GI beliefs might pass the test - eg a belief in gendered souls, or that "you" can be born in the wrong body.

But I am yet to be convinced that a belief that a male body is a female body, or male genitals are female genitals would pass. It's one thing to believe that bread and wine are literally turned into flesh and blood by the power of faith, or that everyone has a soul (gendered or not), because there is a spiritual or metaphysical aspect to the explanation. It's not disprovable. But male body=female body is like believing London is in Spain, or Delhi is the capital of Chile. It's a factually incorrect statement.

Also, the belief that gender identity should be prioritised over sex in law and society definitely interferes with the rights of others.

The salient feature of GII is that it has to be performed and affirmed by other people. So it always involves other people's freedom of belief and speech.
The whole pronouns thing is the obvious example of infringing on other people's rights. Underpinning that is the belief that not to believe that someone else has changed sex is actively harming them and preventing them from "existing".

Did I see someone say upthread that some extreme beliefs of Islam do not pass Grainger, although the core beliefs do? I think that could be the case with GII.

I also wonder if it would fall foul of the tests about being cogent/cohesive/important, or a weighty matter. GII is all about the elevated individual and their preferences. There is no moral lesson that it's based on or that it teaches, whether we agree with it or not. That's partly why its imposition on wider society is both ridiculous and offensive.

Just on Forstater - that case was about a workplace environment. The EAT's remarks about "misgendering" etc applied in the context of maintaining good relations between protected groups at work.

Basically I would be very interested to see the question argued in court or some other forum.

Edited for clarity

RedToothBrush · 22/04/2025 07:51

macaroonmayhem · 21/04/2025 21:25

Just seen on my LinkedIn that NHS Fife are looming for two new Board Members - anyone fancy it??

“Fife NHS Board is looking for two new members to join its Board. We are looking for one member with finance, audit and risk experience and one member who will serve as our Non-Executive Whistleblowing Champion.”

Whistleblowing champion! 😂

Key important questions here, we should take note of:

Is this a newly created role?
If so, why now? The timing is significant.

If it's not, what happened to the last person in the role?
When did they leave?
Did they quit or were they pushed?
Why did they leave?
And if there is any kind of paper trail (or perhaps on a phone maybe) where are they going next?

WandaSiri · 22/04/2025 08:00

Just had a thought - I suppose the reordering of society, reclassification of human beings by GI and not sex, etc are weighty matters. But that means infringement of rights.
It's either a trivial personal religion or an oppressive one.

RedToothBrush · 22/04/2025 08:14

WandaSiri · 22/04/2025 08:00

Just had a thought - I suppose the reordering of society, reclassification of human beings by GI and not sex, etc are weighty matters. But that means infringement of rights.
It's either a trivial personal religion or an oppressive one.

This.

Sex is WORIADS because everyone still has a sex. We can be in denial about it but it doesn't stop you having one. Trans people don't lose their protected characteristic of sex when they transition. They gain an additional one. This is the crux of the problem.

GI which seeks to replace sex with gender has a chilling effect on free speech and rights because it means that you can't name your own issues and concerns. Areas like healthcare become minefields and limit and damage the ability of doctors to care for vulnerable people in the best possible way.

If you believe in gender identity but recognise sex that's a very different prospect. Stonewall law was the mainstream of GI though - not the minority belief. Indeed even transgender people who didn't adhere to Stonewall beliefs have been victimised, harassed and even taken to court.

The idea that recognising sex is an extreme view is the problem. The idea that gender can replace sex and that sex is a social construct is an extremist position.

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