NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #22

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21

I really don't think she'll settle. This has gone too far for that now. Every men and his dog is involved.

I'm in Scotland, not Fife though!
Can I ask those of you in the other UK nations, is this getting a lot of coverage? Obviously you won't be getting the questions in parliament the way we are, but is it on the news every day the way it is here?

Be-peaked!

Summited.

It's been getting a lot of coverage in the more GC-friendly elements of the national press, @Conxis, relative to previous tribunals. Now that the tribunal is suspended, the coverage has died down somewhat, because it's not being discussed so much in Westminster as in Holyrood.

I'm still utterly gobsmacked by the sheer stupidity of the Scottish Labour Conference. Are they trying to lose all their seats?

In England you're talking about the big newspapers and the telly. Those big newspapers that have been critical of genderism have been relatively active, a few articles a week, more when there's An Event. Some telly coverage. The BBC have provided enough coverage to avoid a complaint that they're ignoring the story, but their heart hasn't really been in it.

The person who gave that answer was wrong and had misunderstood the cab rank rule, thinking it meant you had no choice as to which barrister you use, which is the reverse of the truth. The client can choose their barrister. A barrister cannot choose their clients. It applies in all branches of law. A barrister must accept any work they are offered in an area of law in which they specialise provided they are available and the client is willing to pay their normal rate. So yes, whilst it is unlikely, if NC was asked to appear for the GI side in a case, she would have to take do so.

You'd think and hope so.

You'd also hope it would be the same for patients on hospital wards.

Including maternity wards where men / partners are allowed to stay overnight. TBH I couldn't think of anything worse. Having a couple of nights on a children's ward with a Dad opposite me was bad enough.

Thank you @SqueakyDinosaur @nauticant
The BBC has been covering it quite extensively in Scotland on radio and TV, including excerpts of Dr Uptons testimony and the famous nebulous dog whistle comment!
And of course politicians getting involved helps to keep it in the news.

That's the beauty of this story. It's been covered so much that the media which would prefer to ignore it know they'll look strange to people wanting to learn more and that their competitors will get the views and the clicks.

Bummer! I was hoping this would have implications beyond hospitals.

However I do know Staff including swimming instructors, pool attendants, use the public male / female changing rooms at the gym I use. They don't have separate staff ones.

The higher the monkey climbs the more he shows off his arsehole!

or their diary would appear to show they have prior commitments already :)

Oh yes, our traybakes are legendary! As a regular at both the Bay Tree in Holywood (fabulous cinnamon scones) and Donaghadee Garden Centre (vertiginous apple tart and lemon meringue pie), that thread was the thing that originally sucked me into mumsnet! Came for the traybakes, stayed for the feminism!!😂

Tis a legacy to be proud of though. 😁

Yours too @ickky for keeping up with TT

"Bummer! I was hoping this would have implications beyond hospitals. "

It does directly affect the law over public facilities AFAIK. But! It does move the arguments on IMO. And while TRA orgs used female prisoners to push their agendas, specifically to make it harder for women to argue female only anything once they were able to get men into female prisons, I think it's going to be harder for authorities/businesses to dismiss the needs of female service users/customers when they're forced to recognise the legal obligation to cater for female only facilities for female staff - on the basis of propriety. Which is effectively recognition for women to have the right to privacy, dignity & safety in the workplace.

Trans lobbyists always saw this as a game of dominoes where they systematically knocked down women's spaces/facilities/services one by one, starting with incarcerated women. Always done by stealth & always on the basis of emotional blackmail/hierarchy of oppression. Placing women in a position of privilege who should have to give that up for the 'most oppressed'.

We still need to keep pushing on the wider picture in terms of female only provision, but it's a strong wind blowing against the trans rights house of cards built on sand. 🤞

Just seen this in the Times "How trans rights took over Scottish politics — and aren’t going away"
https://www.thetimes.com/article/a4e5e897-4018-4b96-ad21-b1da4766f708?shareToken=6aea394cf7f8f0480802446801b4a6c4

ED said she knew Beth from a psychiatry rotation. Psychiatrists dont usually wear scrubs, so I wonder if Beth actually used the changing rooms much or at all in the previous role. Using just the women's toilets would not have necessarily drawn as much attention, or at least not as much protest.

Will be interesting to hear Kate Searle's version of events, if the case isnt settled before July.

Oh yes, lots of coverage!

I’ve forgotten the name, but in Jo Phoenix’s tribunal, there was one “all roads lead to Rome” TRA witness that was on the witness list late in the tribunal. All the baby TRA witnesses spoke of her in breathless awe as the true Machiavellian controller of what was done to Jo. Before she even arrived in the stand, we were making fun of her and posting gifs of Darth Vader with the Imperial Death March playing. Ben Cooper KC took her apart in the stand.

I wish I could remember her name! Dr Searle reminds me of this woman. The fanatical spider at the centre of the web. I don’t know what will happen between now and the tribunal resuming, but this is one witness that I want to see before the great Naomi Cunningham.

or, it may be a case of, oh dear, I appear to have a conflict of interest, so sorry.

@CrocsNotDocs it was Deborah Drake - vile duplicitous human (and nowhere near as clever as she thinks she is)!

The brilliant judgement quite rightly found her evidence not credible.

Each of these Employment Tribunals has one@CrocsNotDocs. Going way back to the Maya Forstater one there was Ellen MacKenzie, an off-stage character at CGD. After all this time I'm still sad she didn't give evidence. That would have been epic but it was likely that had she appeared, that would have tipped CGD's case from disastrous to catastrophic.

Thank-you!

Apologies, just noticed it's last week's issue, not this week's.