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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #19

1000 replies

nauticant · 14/02/2025 18:06

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It seems that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July but it wasn't completely clear whether it might end a day or two later.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18

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15
RedToothBrush · 16/02/2025 09:11

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 16/02/2025 09:09

Coming back to say there is a tiny bit of evidence that people with genuine gender dysphoria have similar brain activation patterns in a certain part of the brain (I forget which) as people with eating disorders; the proposed theory is that there is some element of a proprioception or internal body-image issue in both cases, maybe.

Having extremist beliefs show up in the brain too.

They go away when exposed to a range of different opinions rather than living in an echo chamber.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 16/02/2025 09:14

RedToothBrush · 16/02/2025 09:11

Having extremist beliefs show up in the brain too.

They go away when exposed to a range of different opinions rather than living in an echo chamber.

I did not know that! Utterly fascinating - must go read about that now!

CarefulN0w · 16/02/2025 09:17

Brainworm · 16/02/2025 08:58

I genuinely don’t understand why people don’t see men insisting that they feeeel like a woman as insulting as white people insisting that they feel like they are black.

Some believe that having a trans identity is a developmental condition. I think DU is one of these. They argue along the lines that the developmental pathway for males or females involves a cognitive component.

I've met people at various stages of transition who were looking for the next procedure. Just one more thing to make them a real woman. Except of course it's never enough. Leading to another "just one more thing". The end of the pathway is usually a miserable one, either from extreme treatment leading to physical problems or the harsh landing of reality.

A recurring theme on these threads is that Dr U hasn't heard the word no enough. And it has really done him a disservice. His choices are to dig in and go further or to admit to himself it's all a lie. He is not yet able to do the latter, so is forced to cling to the former.

As HCP we can show respect for peoples dignity and preferences, but we should never lie to them and must never affirm their delusions.

KnottyAuty · 16/02/2025 09:18

theilltemperedqueenofspacetime · 16/02/2025 08:26

They put the sane letter first, and based the headline and url on it. Green shoots?

Maybe. Maybe not…

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/scottish-news/scottish-express-reported-police-referring-34687715#source=breaking-news

Although with all the public attention this may backfire on the people who reported to the police. The public are going to see this as an attempt at bullying arent they?

Brainworm · 16/02/2025 09:19

My job involves supporting people (patients) who are struggling with life, most of whom present themselves to me with a narrative as to why this is the case. Some arrive feeling bereft of any explanation. The work I do with patients involves packing and re-writing elements of their narratives so they facilitate, not hinder, their quality of life and that of those around them.

DU's narrative is dysfunctional. It might be helpful for him in relation to some aspects of his life and preferred way of life, but it is creating considerable obstacles in other aspects. He can keep on wanting/expecting/demanding his external environment changes to suit his narrative, but this won't deliver a good quality of life for him or those whose lives intersect with his.

Stitchmarker · 16/02/2025 09:20

AlisonDonut · 16/02/2025 08:24

No.

The Health and Safety at work act required employers to provide single sex toilets and spaces for their staff. They don't have to justify it as a legitimate aim.

Sorry to the PP who mentioned this earlier - I didn’t bookmark.

Is there anyone legal who could say for sure that because the 1992 health and safety regulations require separate “men and women” facilities at work to be provided by the employer, and at that time these regulations had not become muddled by later ones like GRA and the whole what is a woman, they can be enforced as they were intended? Or do later legislation and all this legal sex stuff automatically make the 1992 regs meaningless in this regard? What I’m trying to work out is could the health and safety law as intended and as would have been unambiguous in 1982 override everything else? Especially as in most workplaces health and safety is said to be a top priority?

I am interested to know how a legal person would see this.

Sorry if it’s already been covered elsewhere.

BabaYagasHouse · 16/02/2025 09:24

RedToothBrush · 15/02/2025 09:44

I'm going to quote this as it's such an important point and it's the one that locks into British politics over the last decade or so in multiple ways.

The employment tribunal, which will continue into the summer because of NHS Fife’s inability to produce essential documents in time, has not only exposed the nebulous nature of gender identity theory – that a human being can change their sex through sheer will – but the ingrained class divide at the heart of the NHS that also characterises the debate around gender.

Gender identity theory is largely a middle-class pursuit, a fake radicalism which doesn't bother its pretty little head with tackling the material causes of poverty and inequality. Instead, as feminist writer Sheila Jeffries argued in 2014, it is a social construct designed to maintain male dominance. And since its inception, the National Health Service has put the demands of the doctor class first before the needs of the largely working-class nursing and support staff.

Middle-class arrogance
Former Labour MSP Jenny Marra, who attended the tribunal over several days, said the evidence reeked of class and entitlement. She observed: "Middle-class arrogant male doctor breaches nurse's boundaries is not a new story. But this time the doctor is facing down the nurse with the backing of politicians and illegal guidelines drawn up by public sector officials who have been hoodwinked into betraying reality and the many working-class women at the frontline of our public services.”

It is not surprising that middle-class professionals, whether doctors, HR managers or even politicians, have found comfort in the simplistic politics of identity. How much easier it is to pin a trans ally badge on a set of scrubs or business suit than begin to tackle the centuries’ old structural issues that trap millions of women in low-paid jobs, poor housing and ill-health, often at risk of sexual violence and abuse.

Sandie didn't go to her union for support at a key moment. Why? Because she knew her union wouldn't support her on this issue.

Time and again we see this pattern of those with power and influence denying an issue and saying there's no evince of an issue.

But they also get to gate keep and decide what constitutes evidence and what doesn't - like Upton did.

I've said this on various themes over the years in various ways: absence of evidence does not indicate an absence of a problem. It might mean you just aren't quantifying something that might be starring you in the face and there's the temptation for those in power to be dismissive as a result. But it doesn't stop a problem if you deny it.

Some examples of this: my classic MN one - Bounty. The NHS denied there was an issue because they didn't have complaints even though if you looked in here there were hundreds. They were blind to the problem and didn't want to acknowledge it and they had a conflict of interest over it. They didn't want to acknowledge the inappropriateness of facilitating high pressure sales tactics in a ward setting nor how this raised questions over dubious consent through undue pressure.

Ditto maternity care across the board.

Then we have Brexit - and one of the things the leave campaign tapped into was this sense of public sector waste and this middle class prioritisation and punching down. Dominic Cummings had it firmly in his sights long before Elon has come along in the US to try to do the same. I think people are forgetting what happened here, has hugely influenced what has subsequently happened in the US not the other way round. Now that is starting to reverse some what. But the seeds of this, didn't come from the likes of Trump leading the way. There was a huge amount of public dissatisfaction and concern that the Leave campaign recognised could be tapped into and collectively become an anti status quo / anti establishment vote rather than actual being anything to the European Union as such.

Now despite having left the EU, many of the actual issues that led to people voting for Brexit have not even been looked at. That's why support for the Tories to 'deliver Brexit' has collapsed. Cos it never really was about leaving the EU in so many respects. And these underlying issues of discontent remain.

Labour isn't doing a great job of identifying this.

Gender identity or more correctly, EDI stuff was one of these issues. When you look at polling of world views for voters from the referendum a few of the startling things is how polarised views were between pro-brexit and anti-brexit voters on subjects relating to anything which falls broadly under the umbrella of progressive activism.

It's widely been put down to, by middle class types, as regressive and bigoted views.

In reality I think it's more complex than that - it's been a concern about virtue signalling and performative issues being prioritised to the neglect of practical everyday boring functional concerns with a hell of a lot of money spent on looking good rather than dealing with systematic problems people face daily but have been neglected.

And that's what has allowed the rise of Trump and the re-emergance of Farage.

And that's not going to go away.

That's why discussions over why we have EDI departments taking precedence over the legal department and acting against the HR department are important. And why looking at how inexperienced highly paid graduates who have been conditioned by ideology over understanding of matters of law which protect junior members of staff are important.

What is apparent is despite EDI supposedly being about recognising the invisibility and lack of voice of certain groups the reality is EDI has successfully been used as a way to silence others at the expense of actual equality. It's been used to preserve the status and power of the middle classes and their beliefs over the working class rather than for what it claims to stand for.

Now I'm middle class and I was pro remain. And I wouldn't vote for Farage (or Trump if I could) in a million years. Because I know and see what they are.

But I have been saying a lot of this stuff about class since before the referendum. And it's only becoming more and more apparent in terms of a failure to listen to people without power about the problems and concerns they face on a daily basis.

This is why gender v sex isn't going to vanish in a puff of smoke. Because underneath all of it is the sheer level of sexism and sexual abuse based on sex that women see and feel and experience on a daily basis.

The trans argument sits on the corner point of class issues and sex based issues and outside typical left v right politics but very much within authoritarian existing power v incoming authoritarian power battles. That's why it's so pivotal. It has implications and ramifications far beyond 'just wanting to pee'. It is about who controls access to women in many respects. And women are not being allowed to say 'oh well actually I'm fighting for myself and to hell with both groups trying to use this area to control me'. And the media facilitate this dynamic because ultimately they are not separate from authority because they ARE that authority.

There's various grass roots groups out there on all manner of subjects who have sprung up in this climate of dissatisfaction and these two new centres of power are competing for ownership of them.

This is why I find individual voices and the grass roots stuff that MN is very good at allowing to flourish independently so important and compelling.

I think this Scotsman article is so hugely important for all these reasons. It gets to grips with many aspects of how and why we are at the point we are.

I post in the hope that it helps to get others to have the penny drop in terms of how it all joins up and fits into ongoing much broader political changes.

Unless Labour sees this problem as it is, not as they want it to be, it will haunt them until the next election and it WILL cost them dear. To put it bluntly constituency demographics don't favour them well enough to sit on their hands and do nothing.

For whatever reason that motivates him, Streeting sees this very clearly indeed and I find that fascinating in its own right. His support for the Darlington Nurses (note Darlington) is as tactical as it is sane.

I'm happy to re-quote this post, despite its many re-quotes.
It is the perfect summary and bears being read and re-read.

Violetparis · 16/02/2025 09:26

BonfireLady · 16/02/2025 09:09

Agreed. I whistleblew at work regarding the mandatory training that all staff had to do and the fact that it positioned gender identity belief as true. I've mentioned it on previous threads but not for a while. We don't need to change at work and the training didn't specifically cover toilets.

During the whistleblowing process I ended up speaking to the EDI lead (my HR rep was there too) and we had a good conversation about differences in belief. The only point at which they both winced was when I said that I wouldn't be happy to see a TW in the ladies' toilets. The one positive that came from it was that the policy which had misrepresented the PC of gender reassignment got amended. However, all the training with gender identity belief as "fact" (i.e. we all have a gender identity and it's possible for it to be misaligned with your sex) still remains. The training for line managers makes it clear that it's more important than someone's sex.

I am hoping that the fallout from the Peggie case will change all this and organisations (especially the NHS) will see the consequences of putting gender identity ahead of biological sex reality.

BonfireLady · 16/02/2025 09:26

RedToothBrush · 15/02/2025 09:44

I'm going to quote this as it's such an important point and it's the one that locks into British politics over the last decade or so in multiple ways.

The employment tribunal, which will continue into the summer because of NHS Fife’s inability to produce essential documents in time, has not only exposed the nebulous nature of gender identity theory – that a human being can change their sex through sheer will – but the ingrained class divide at the heart of the NHS that also characterises the debate around gender.

Gender identity theory is largely a middle-class pursuit, a fake radicalism which doesn't bother its pretty little head with tackling the material causes of poverty and inequality. Instead, as feminist writer Sheila Jeffries argued in 2014, it is a social construct designed to maintain male dominance. And since its inception, the National Health Service has put the demands of the doctor class first before the needs of the largely working-class nursing and support staff.

Middle-class arrogance
Former Labour MSP Jenny Marra, who attended the tribunal over several days, said the evidence reeked of class and entitlement. She observed: "Middle-class arrogant male doctor breaches nurse's boundaries is not a new story. But this time the doctor is facing down the nurse with the backing of politicians and illegal guidelines drawn up by public sector officials who have been hoodwinked into betraying reality and the many working-class women at the frontline of our public services.”

It is not surprising that middle-class professionals, whether doctors, HR managers or even politicians, have found comfort in the simplistic politics of identity. How much easier it is to pin a trans ally badge on a set of scrubs or business suit than begin to tackle the centuries’ old structural issues that trap millions of women in low-paid jobs, poor housing and ill-health, often at risk of sexual violence and abuse.

Sandie didn't go to her union for support at a key moment. Why? Because she knew her union wouldn't support her on this issue.

Time and again we see this pattern of those with power and influence denying an issue and saying there's no evince of an issue.

But they also get to gate keep and decide what constitutes evidence and what doesn't - like Upton did.

I've said this on various themes over the years in various ways: absence of evidence does not indicate an absence of a problem. It might mean you just aren't quantifying something that might be starring you in the face and there's the temptation for those in power to be dismissive as a result. But it doesn't stop a problem if you deny it.

Some examples of this: my classic MN one - Bounty. The NHS denied there was an issue because they didn't have complaints even though if you looked in here there were hundreds. They were blind to the problem and didn't want to acknowledge it and they had a conflict of interest over it. They didn't want to acknowledge the inappropriateness of facilitating high pressure sales tactics in a ward setting nor how this raised questions over dubious consent through undue pressure.

Ditto maternity care across the board.

Then we have Brexit - and one of the things the leave campaign tapped into was this sense of public sector waste and this middle class prioritisation and punching down. Dominic Cummings had it firmly in his sights long before Elon has come along in the US to try to do the same. I think people are forgetting what happened here, has hugely influenced what has subsequently happened in the US not the other way round. Now that is starting to reverse some what. But the seeds of this, didn't come from the likes of Trump leading the way. There was a huge amount of public dissatisfaction and concern that the Leave campaign recognised could be tapped into and collectively become an anti status quo / anti establishment vote rather than actual being anything to the European Union as such.

Now despite having left the EU, many of the actual issues that led to people voting for Brexit have not even been looked at. That's why support for the Tories to 'deliver Brexit' has collapsed. Cos it never really was about leaving the EU in so many respects. And these underlying issues of discontent remain.

Labour isn't doing a great job of identifying this.

Gender identity or more correctly, EDI stuff was one of these issues. When you look at polling of world views for voters from the referendum a few of the startling things is how polarised views were between pro-brexit and anti-brexit voters on subjects relating to anything which falls broadly under the umbrella of progressive activism.

It's widely been put down to, by middle class types, as regressive and bigoted views.

In reality I think it's more complex than that - it's been a concern about virtue signalling and performative issues being prioritised to the neglect of practical everyday boring functional concerns with a hell of a lot of money spent on looking good rather than dealing with systematic problems people face daily but have been neglected.

And that's what has allowed the rise of Trump and the re-emergance of Farage.

And that's not going to go away.

That's why discussions over why we have EDI departments taking precedence over the legal department and acting against the HR department are important. And why looking at how inexperienced highly paid graduates who have been conditioned by ideology over understanding of matters of law which protect junior members of staff are important.

What is apparent is despite EDI supposedly being about recognising the invisibility and lack of voice of certain groups the reality is EDI has successfully been used as a way to silence others at the expense of actual equality. It's been used to preserve the status and power of the middle classes and their beliefs over the working class rather than for what it claims to stand for.

Now I'm middle class and I was pro remain. And I wouldn't vote for Farage (or Trump if I could) in a million years. Because I know and see what they are.

But I have been saying a lot of this stuff about class since before the referendum. And it's only becoming more and more apparent in terms of a failure to listen to people without power about the problems and concerns they face on a daily basis.

This is why gender v sex isn't going to vanish in a puff of smoke. Because underneath all of it is the sheer level of sexism and sexual abuse based on sex that women see and feel and experience on a daily basis.

The trans argument sits on the corner point of class issues and sex based issues and outside typical left v right politics but very much within authoritarian existing power v incoming authoritarian power battles. That's why it's so pivotal. It has implications and ramifications far beyond 'just wanting to pee'. It is about who controls access to women in many respects. And women are not being allowed to say 'oh well actually I'm fighting for myself and to hell with both groups trying to use this area to control me'. And the media facilitate this dynamic because ultimately they are not separate from authority because they ARE that authority.

There's various grass roots groups out there on all manner of subjects who have sprung up in this climate of dissatisfaction and these two new centres of power are competing for ownership of them.

This is why I find individual voices and the grass roots stuff that MN is very good at allowing to flourish independently so important and compelling.

I think this Scotsman article is so hugely important for all these reasons. It gets to grips with many aspects of how and why we are at the point we are.

I post in the hope that it helps to get others to have the penny drop in terms of how it all joins up and fits into ongoing much broader political changes.

Unless Labour sees this problem as it is, not as they want it to be, it will haunt them until the next election and it WILL cost them dear. To put it bluntly constituency demographics don't favour them well enough to sit on their hands and do nothing.

For whatever reason that motivates him, Streeting sees this very clearly indeed and I find that fascinating in its own right. His support for the Darlington Nurses (note Darlington) is as tactical as it is sane.

Great post.

And to pick up on one tiny part of it.... I had forgotten about Bounty. I remember being really discombobulated by the rep coming along to talk to me when I was in hospital with my first in the 2-3 days I stayed in. I was struggling to sleep and to feed her and stayed in hospital for the midwife support, because I was feeling so overwhelmed. Initially I thought how lovely it was that someone was talking to me but even in my woozy state it became clear it was a sales pitch.

Yes, the NHS has all sorts of form for not recognising its own failures to safeguard people. The biggest one currently being the medical scandal that's under our noses where they have embraced unevidenced "gender affirming care".

theilltemperedqueenofspacetime · 16/02/2025 09:31

Stitchmarker · 16/02/2025 09:20

Sorry to the PP who mentioned this earlier - I didn’t bookmark.

Is there anyone legal who could say for sure that because the 1992 health and safety regulations require separate “men and women” facilities at work to be provided by the employer, and at that time these regulations had not become muddled by later ones like GRA and the whole what is a woman, they can be enforced as they were intended? Or do later legislation and all this legal sex stuff automatically make the 1992 regs meaningless in this regard? What I’m trying to work out is could the health and safety law as intended and as would have been unambiguous in 1982 override everything else? Especially as in most workplaces health and safety is said to be a top priority?

I am interested to know how a legal person would see this.

Sorry if it’s already been covered elsewhere.

I previously commented on this, although IANAL (or at least not the relevant sort):

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7?reply=142051795&utm_campaign=reply&utm_medium=share

prh47bridge · 16/02/2025 09:32

Stitchmarker · 16/02/2025 09:20

Sorry to the PP who mentioned this earlier - I didn’t bookmark.

Is there anyone legal who could say for sure that because the 1992 health and safety regulations require separate “men and women” facilities at work to be provided by the employer, and at that time these regulations had not become muddled by later ones like GRA and the whole what is a woman, they can be enforced as they were intended? Or do later legislation and all this legal sex stuff automatically make the 1992 regs meaningless in this regard? What I’m trying to work out is could the health and safety law as intended and as would have been unambiguous in 1982 override everything else? Especially as in most workplaces health and safety is said to be a top priority?

I am interested to know how a legal person would see this.

Sorry if it’s already been covered elsewhere.

My personal view is that the intention of the regulations is clear, and the fact that the Equality Act lists gender reassignment and sex as separate protected characteristics strongly suggests that the correct interpretation is still that a trans woman is not a woman for the purposes of these regulations.

However, this is complicated by the fact that the GRA says that, if the acquired gender is that of a woman, the person's sex becomes that of a woman. If we accept that at face value, the regulations allow trans women to use single sex facilities intended for women. The fact that the regulations were made earlier does not mean we have to interpret them based on the legal position at the time.

The reality, therefore, is that the law is a mess. In some places it conflates gender identity with sex, in other places it keeps them separate. This, of course, is exactly what TRAs want as it serves their purposes and allows them to push interpretations of the law that suit them.

The only way to sort out the correct interpretation is for the courts to decide. In that respect, it would be better for this case (or one like it) to go to appeal as that would set a precedent that would be binding on future ETs.

The other option, of course, is for parliament to pass new legislation to clarify the law.

KnottyAuty · 16/02/2025 09:32

Brainworm · 16/02/2025 08:58

I genuinely don’t understand why people don’t see men insisting that they feeeel like a woman as insulting as white people insisting that they feel like they are black.

Some believe that having a trans identity is a developmental condition. I think DU is one of these. They argue along the lines that the developmental pathway for males or females involves a cognitive component.

What? Like mind over matter?

fanOfBen · 16/02/2025 09:39

prh47bridge · 16/02/2025 09:32

My personal view is that the intention of the regulations is clear, and the fact that the Equality Act lists gender reassignment and sex as separate protected characteristics strongly suggests that the correct interpretation is still that a trans woman is not a woman for the purposes of these regulations.

However, this is complicated by the fact that the GRA says that, if the acquired gender is that of a woman, the person's sex becomes that of a woman. If we accept that at face value, the regulations allow trans women to use single sex facilities intended for women. The fact that the regulations were made earlier does not mean we have to interpret them based on the legal position at the time.

The reality, therefore, is that the law is a mess. In some places it conflates gender identity with sex, in other places it keeps them separate. This, of course, is exactly what TRAs want as it serves their purposes and allows them to push interpretations of the law that suit them.

The only way to sort out the correct interpretation is for the courts to decide. In that respect, it would be better for this case (or one like it) to go to appeal as that would set a precedent that would be binding on future ETs.

The other option, of course, is for parliament to pass new legislation to clarify the law.

This is not complicated by the GRA in this particular case though, is it? The GRA says someone's sex changes if they have a GRC, but we know Upton cannot possible have had one.

RedToothBrush · 16/02/2025 09:39

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 16/02/2025 09:14

I did not know that! Utterly fascinating - must go read about that now!

I've posted about it a number of times - there's quite a few articles and a few research projects on the subject.

I think this would also possibly explain why people who are autistic are more at risk because they are more vulnerable as they are more likely to become fixated on a subject and therefore end up in echo chambers and struggle more to see things from multiple perspectives.

(If this is the case, with the advent of social media we'd be likely to see a rise in extremist incidents involving autistic individuals in a range of different political areas because it encourages and exacerbates social isolation and echo chambers. Being autistic wouldn't make them extremists but it would make them more vulnerable to extremism - it's an important distinction. I would argue we really should be looking closely at this as being a possibility of current social patterns).

PepeParapluie · 16/02/2025 09:39

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 16/02/2025 08:52

And since a male can only have experiences that are male and can never have the experiences of being biologically female, no matter how hard they try they can never claim the state of being a woman or being female. It is impossible.

And it is insulting and offensive to suggest differently.

As a child I was introduced to a set of triplets, and I asked them what it was like to be triplets. They had obviously been asked this many times, because the look of utter disdain I got was impressive. Their answer was “How should we know? We’ve never been anything else to compare it to. How does it feel not to be a triplet?” To which, of course, I had no answer, because how should I know?

I genuinely don’t understand why people don’t see men insisting that they feeeel like a woman as insulting as white people insisting that they feel like they are black.

I had a similar chat with a TWAW friend. I said whatever it is that TW feel, it’s not ‘like a woman’ because by definition everything they feel is a make experience or feeling because they are male. She said we can’t possibly understand the distress experienced by TW because we aren’t in their minds. I agreed, and said it follows they can’t possibly say that distress is caused by ‘feeling like a woman’ because they can’t experience feeling like a woman because they are men.

She seemed to take it on board but said we just have to take it on trust that they feel like that.

I don’t deny they may well have feelings of discomfort or distress. But those feelings can never be ‘like a woman’ or mean that they experience things ‘as a woman’ because they are not.

Stitchmarker · 16/02/2025 09:40

prh47bridge · 16/02/2025 09:32

My personal view is that the intention of the regulations is clear, and the fact that the Equality Act lists gender reassignment and sex as separate protected characteristics strongly suggests that the correct interpretation is still that a trans woman is not a woman for the purposes of these regulations.

However, this is complicated by the fact that the GRA says that, if the acquired gender is that of a woman, the person's sex becomes that of a woman. If we accept that at face value, the regulations allow trans women to use single sex facilities intended for women. The fact that the regulations were made earlier does not mean we have to interpret them based on the legal position at the time.

The reality, therefore, is that the law is a mess. In some places it conflates gender identity with sex, in other places it keeps them separate. This, of course, is exactly what TRAs want as it serves their purposes and allows them to push interpretations of the law that suit them.

The only way to sort out the correct interpretation is for the courts to decide. In that respect, it would be better for this case (or one like it) to go to appeal as that would set a precedent that would be binding on future ETs.

The other option, of course, is for parliament to pass new legislation to clarify the law.

Thank you so much for taking the trouble to summarise like that. Indeed a real mess. And that mess implemented in workplaces large and small.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 16/02/2025 09:40

KnottyAuty · 16/02/2025 09:32

What? Like mind over matter?

I believe at least one of the lines of “thought” is that the brains of people who end up trans-identifying were soaked too long in the opposite sex hormones in utero. Yes I know this sounds box-of-frogs mad.

KnottyAuty · 16/02/2025 09:45

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 16/02/2025 09:09

Coming back to say there is a tiny bit of evidence that people with genuine gender dysphoria have similar brain activation patterns in a certain part of the brain (I forget which) as people with eating disorders; the proposed theory is that there is some element of a proprioception or internal body-image issue in both cases, maybe.

My theory is that soon gender dysphoria will be linked to autism - just as is happening for eating disorders now.

It will change public perception and a possibly reduce willingness to comply with the desires of those with a psychiatric disorder

DU shows a lot of traits of autism- I feel a traitor to my people for saying that. Not All Autists!

crabbyoldbat · 16/02/2025 09:45

re: KS being added as respondent 3 (R3) - it seems/is alleged she emailed a group of doctors (consultants) about SP prior to any investigation being completed or findings made, which I assume would be a detriment, not least to SP's reputation. That's probably why they want to formally add her.

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 16/02/2025 09:46

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 16/02/2025 09:09

Coming back to say there is a tiny bit of evidence that people with genuine gender dysphoria have similar brain activation patterns in a certain part of the brain (I forget which) as people with eating disorders; the proposed theory is that there is some element of a proprioception or internal body-image issue in both cases, maybe.

I think it's also important to note that there is a strong connection between gender dysphoria and autism. Particularly among our youth though I expect that is because we are much better now at detecting autism, and as autism is a neurodevelopmental disorder it speaks to the notion that "trans brains are different" because if they're autistic, their brains will obviously be different.

This is why the Cass report strongly suggested all those wishing to transition should also be screened for autism.

When you're autistic it's very easy to become fixated on something that you truly believe to be a solution for the trauma you feel with the world and with yourself. It doesn't mean it's the right solution, or that you have a boy brain or a girl brain, but structural differences within the brain may still be found.

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 16/02/2025 09:48

KnottyAuty · 16/02/2025 09:45

My theory is that soon gender dysphoria will be linked to autism - just as is happening for eating disorders now.

It will change public perception and a possibly reduce willingness to comply with the desires of those with a psychiatric disorder

DU shows a lot of traits of autism- I feel a traitor to my people for saying that. Not All Autists!

Cross posted!

Also autistic and have never once felt an innate gender identity.

Have had the feeling of finding my tribe though and throwing myself into everything to do with it though and believing all of its tenets even though on reflection I have a lot of disagreements with it.

teawamutu · 16/02/2025 09:49

KnottyAuty · 16/02/2025 09:45

My theory is that soon gender dysphoria will be linked to autism - just as is happening for eating disorders now.

It will change public perception and a possibly reduce willingness to comply with the desires of those with a psychiatric disorder

DU shows a lot of traits of autism- I feel a traitor to my people for saying that. Not All Autists!

Definitely not all.

Upton may or may not be autistic, but - going on performance in the tribunal - is definitely arrogant, snide, sexist and rude.

Never medicalise being an arsehole is one of my mottoes 😁

Brainworm · 16/02/2025 09:51

The Cass Report was clear in stating that there are many 'ways in' to having a trans identity.....highlighting why there needs to be a range of different treatments to address gender related distress.

RedToothBrush · 16/02/2025 09:51

BonfireLady · 16/02/2025 09:26

Great post.

And to pick up on one tiny part of it.... I had forgotten about Bounty. I remember being really discombobulated by the rep coming along to talk to me when I was in hospital with my first in the 2-3 days I stayed in. I was struggling to sleep and to feed her and stayed in hospital for the midwife support, because I was feeling so overwhelmed. Initially I thought how lovely it was that someone was talking to me but even in my woozy state it became clear it was a sales pitch.

Yes, the NHS has all sorts of form for not recognising its own failures to safeguard people. The biggest one currently being the medical scandal that's under our noses where they have embraced unevidenced "gender affirming care".

Bounty is a particularly good example because the NHS made the assumption that women in a vulnerable state felt able to say no and the default position was to put the onus on them to advocate rather than the default being to safeguard and then allow women to make choices without being in a pressured situation. The NHS couldn't see the problem and went into denial and was obstructive when the problem was raised because it didn't go through the approved complaint process. There was no understanding of why the complaints process would fail to pick up dissent.

The whole thing about EDI is that it is supposed to be tuned to and pick up on invisibility. In order to do that, you need to actually listen though. It's a grass roots process not a top down telling people how to behave process.

We see massive issues in the NHS which centre around informed consent on a general basis. It touches on a huge number of subjects. The latest one is assisted dying. And my ongoing concerns about assisted dying are precisely because there is an institutional level issue within the NHS surrounding the ethics of consent - particularly around this point of undue pressure.

Whilst people might grasp consent is about saying yes, they don't grasp that saying nothing or saying yes in certain situations does not necessarily mean valid consent has been given. Equally a lack of complaint does not equal a satisfaction with the situation for many similar reasons.

The fear factor is one we need to understand and acknowledge better.

Needspaceforlego · 16/02/2025 09:52

TriesNotToBeCynical · 16/02/2025 02:30

Did you notice the bit where they said that in future they are not going to publish gender or sex information at all?

Well there's little point in them publishing M/F if the records are a work of ficton and F have cocks and M with fannies.

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