NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #19

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It seems that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July but it wasn't completely clear whether it might end a day or two later.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18

Bravo @Boiledbeetle 👏

Caramel log over caramel wafer but not the easiest to get in England.

Teacake is good but do enjoy a wee snowball but messy. Also enjoy the cakey snowball (but not Tunnocks 😂)

my DD does enjoy all things sweet from Scotland ( we live down south). DS is partial to a crumpet.

just as well I didn’t see this discussion earlier when I was at the supermarket 😂

Not sure about term for being too good to get promoted but NHS Fife - and many public sector orgs - are rife with the Dilbert principle where incompetent people are promoted to limit the damage they do.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilbert_principle

DD's old school is Stonewall Schools Champion and affirmed her male ID against my wishes and concerns for her MH. They parroted all the 'Stonelaw' at me when I complained. It was a surreal and very stressful experience having professionals I had entrusted with my daughter's education and in loco parentis during school hours, try to justify referring to my daughter as 'he', simultaneously deny they were doing this, and tell me that calling her the new male 'trans' name was just the same as using an abbreviation of a birth name and no big deal. Then calling social services about me when I didn't go along with it. And telling me school was my daughter's only 'safe space' because home was 'hostile'.
I want heads to roll at Stonewall.

Presumably permission for the police to seize the phone and download the info was in the process of being granted that afternoon. X posts seem to suggest it is fairly routine.

I know they have set aside a couple of days for video calls to go through it in late March, but presumably they wouldn't wait until then?

I'm actually here for the discussion about the coconut-based comestibles...

So sorry you went through this. Totally agree that Stonewall needs to answer for their crimes against children.

It was great to see so many media reports about this case and so much public interest, and I am really thankful to Nurse Peggie for fighting for this tribunal to be public.

Many PP mentioned the topic of class in how the problem played out, but maybe it is also that the case is revelant to a wider audience.

It is a brilliant example case as so many people are able to connect this to their own life, be it changing rooms in a variety of ways (from work, the gym or when they go clothes shopping to taking children to swimming classes) and it can be connected to other female-only spaces like groups or shelters, too.

So this might have a wider net than the cases at universities, even though these laid the incredibly important groundwork for the following ones and they were more difficult for the claimants as they fought with less public support and in a different political climate.

I didn't follow all of the previous court cases and haven't fully caught up on the threads, so apologies if there is some crossover somewhere.

But SPs fight will be relevant to many people and many will know a family member or friend in a similar situation. It is very much a "It could happen to everyone" - situation which even catches those out who only supported TRAs for virtue signalling and didn't think the problems would catch them out personally.

Regarding interesting sources, this is Michael Foran's page where his articles are collected, also easier access for those who don't like Twix etc.

https://knowingius.org/

They wouldn't get the police involved as it's a civil matter. And it also won't be dealt with until the have the video hearing, whenever that was being arranged for.

He will just have to resist the urge to attempt to destroy evidence until he finds out whether they have permission or not!

IANAL but isn't Fife still at risk if the harrassment claim is not upheld? Seems to me that even if we had an oracle that said SP had harrassed BU in the CR, Fife would still be in trouble for how they handled the subsequent investigation, in which (even if that were the case) they didn't take the steps that would have established or disproved it. For example, from the case management hearing, "the Board failed to progress the Claimant’s disciplinary investigation with reasonable promptness".

I saw a "future TT" about the phone:

Source:
https://nitter.poast.org/Brummagem10/status/1890695670715060491#m

Credit: Brummagem10 (X/nitter)

"My time space portal only goes so far as July:
NC u were asked to submit Ur phone?
DU y
NC this is TV remote
DU no, phone
NC clearly not phone, 5 yo knows difference
DU disagree, spectrum of electrical devices
NC can use this device 4 communication?
JR objection, not tech expert"

@NotAGentleReminder I didn't think it was in doubt either, but I saw some discussion over whether JR might be asked to confirm he was biologically female, and having a witness to disprove it. I agree, I think we can all just assume BU is talking rubbish.

I think Fife could be in trouble because Sandy make it clear she was uncomfortable and they did nothing. They don’t know if others were uncomfortable because they never consulted with female staff. Whilst there may be another changing room available (was that one actually single sex) it seems it is not really used. But that is the bit that worries me- theee was another provision and the locker room wasn’t an official changing room.

i suspect Upton may get away with it because he had permission to be there. However if they get his phone, I suspect they may find notes on other women who have also left the changing room. (Assuming he doesn’t delete).

They would just have to ensure that their advice is legal according to the actual law rather than their own imagined version of it.

Was just thinking about how Upton's behaviour in the workplace and his testimony in the tribunal is going to make things more difficult in general for people who claim to have a gender identity.

No employer wants the risk of being entangled in a high-profile court case over trans nonsense so this is probably going to lead to more hiring decisions that reject such people from employment.

Sounds very familiar. I was one of them, I’m afraid. Scales were torn from my eyes, but I feel very conflicted about some of the things I said/advocated for before that point.

Thanks for posting this!

This quote stood out:
"the mean girl teenager knows the best thing is not actually to say mean things to the other girl; it’s to ignore her"

This is another one to add to NC's list about why noone spoke out

As MIND are also totally stonewalled I wouldn’t want them advising workplaces either

I posted elsewhere, the metadata will prove or disprove how contemporaneous his notes were and confirm whether he has spilled a pack of lies to the tribunal re: resus and wave incident as well as what notes he kept on others - presumably afraid that other women knew he was a man and was simply wearing womens clothes and make-up, which as a statement of fact he is/was.

This is the exact argument AGAIN in this case.
So will it go differently? What argument should have been made last time?

It seems clear that NC and the legal peeps have learned from these previous problems - hence the insistence about the language etc. The first cases were blind-sided by spurious illogical logic. Hopefully this one will be better!

A quick question. I've noticed many people creating posts to say 'placemarking'
Is there a reason people post this instead of bookmarking a position in a thread?

Perhaps easy to find. There have been so many. I have just put “watching” but I have been posting occasionally too.

I don’t understand why the phone notes + meta data haven’t been disclosed already. They’re clearly relevant (both respondents have been relying on their content to greater or lesser extent) they still exist (Du said so)… and yet, they don’t seem to have a bundle reference - all we have is statements from witnesses that they saw the notes or DU referred to the notes.

Why didn’t NC ask for a quick mid-hearing order to hand over the phone notes? I can’t think of any reason it wouldn’t be granted.

So long as they don't misrepresent the law, they'd be fine to continue.

If I remember rightly, the NHS trust didn’t appeal against the judgement. I think had the case been brought by an individual/group of staff, it would almost certainly have been appealed.

It's a common feeling. Years ago, Mark Fisher wrote a fascinating class analysis in Exiting the vampire castle.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/exiting-vampire-castle/

Some of it doesn't stand the test of time but I find most of it to be thought-provoking.

wrt scales, I've never forgotten this comment:

This thread has been astonishing. I thought the scales had fallen from my eyes several months ago and realise now the scales had only fallen from the scales. The process of burrowing down beneath the layers of gas lighting, compromising, desire to be kind and inclusive that have clouded the arguments and caused people to find these issues confusing is really a journey in understanding how massively the world is run by men, for men.

I thought I knew that, but I didn’t really have a clue. I rarely post but I read avidly and am spreading the word in real life. Every single person I have spoken to about the implications of self ID gets it immediately. They just find it very hard to believe that the govt, the BBC, schools, the NHS, the prison service, the Girl Guides, political parties, sports bodies, local councils, psychologists have all abandoned rational belief and scientific knowledge and think men are actually women “because they say so”. Thank you FWR for continuing to provide astonishingly well written, insightful and intelligent contributions to the debate. I feel the warmth, strength and power of you all and it is very empowering. [My line spacing.]

Thread from 2018: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3364094-Debbie-Hayton-in-the-Times?reply=81111220&utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share