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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #19

1000 replies

nauticant · 14/02/2025 18:06

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It seems that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July but it wasn't completely clear whether it might end a day or two later.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18

OP posts:
Thread gallery
15
YourWiseBee · 15/02/2025 14:47

I am sure I have seen this not Ashley person arguing on X before - with Michael Foran or other lawyers. They seem very confident that they are correct and claim to be a lawyer themselves. I think others were doubtful of there lawyer claim with their clear misunderstanding of the law. Time and time again these people are proven to be wrong.

JasmineAllen · 15/02/2025 14:48

eatfigs · 15/02/2025 13:43

This appears to be written by someone with a US style grasp on UK and EU law and manages to come across as both condescending and ill-informed.

NebulousDogwhistle · 15/02/2025 14:49

Manxexile · 15/02/2025 14:45

NC only watched Rainbows so as not to miss the start of Crown court!

Rainbows was on ITV. My mother was in no way posh but was very aspirational and therefore commercial tv was banned in our house.

WandaSiri · 15/02/2025 14:51

lnks · 15/02/2025 14:28

I don't pretend to have a full understanding of the law, but he is comparing SP case with one that happened 2 decades ago and one from even longer back than that. Given that the Equality Act was passed in 2010 how can he use discissions that predate it to discuss SP's case.

It's the wrong piece of legislation as well. The Workplace Regulations 1992 cover toilets at work and they mandate separate single sex provision.

Merrymouse · 15/02/2025 14:51

spannasaurus · 15/02/2025 14:26

People are not required to have surgery or take cross sex hormones for a GRC to be issued or the birth certificate changed

A GRC protects privacy. I think an example given in the original case that prompted the legislation was an employee's sex being revealed via their NI number. Now, a person with a GRC can get that changed.

However, privacy is not an absolute right and there are many exceptions where the 'veil' of the GRC an be lifted.

RethinkingLife · 15/02/2025 14:51

Needspaceforlego · 15/02/2025 14:05

Many trans people have sued businesses for blocking them from using public toilets—and not a single case has been lost.

From that article - is that true?

You mean there is a remarkable claim without a link to verify it? 😱😱 I would not be surprised if some people have been given money to go away and stop progress of a nuisance claim that is unlikely to succeed but would tie up people and resources. But, in the UK, I doubt it’s widespread given how difficult it is for people with mobility or other access needs to prevail in such actions.

Newtt · 15/02/2025 14:52

NotMaroonButRaspberry · 15/02/2025 13:38

"Judge Davies said: 'A concern about the woman's state of undress in the changing rooms was likely to be connected with the fact that she is a transgender woman.
'This was a communal changing room with a shower cubicle. It did not seem to the Tribunal likely that there would have been a concern about a cisgender woman in a state of undress while changing in such a changing room."

This has to be legally incorrect though?

The right comparator is not a "cisgender" woman but a male. And yes, there would be issues with a half naked male in the female changing room (ta dah!)

When the refers to a naked man in the women's changing room as 'the woman's state of undress... likely to be connected with the fact that she is a transgender woman...'

You know you have lost.

It was a naked person with male genitalia changing in the female changing room.

'...It did not seem to the tribunal likely that there would have been concern about a cisgender woman in a state of undress...'

Well that is not exactly rocket science - of course there would not have been concern if a female was undressed in the female changing room.

If judges are set to used 'women' etc in a case where the sex of the person is 'disputed' for want of a better word, then it is not impartial from the start. There will be a continual bias recorded through out.

JamMakingWannaBe · 15/02/2025 14:52

"I’m a lawyer and baffled that someone who doesn’t have a GRC was allowed into a single sex space."
But women have no way of knowing, and it's not possible to ask/ascertain, if a man has a GRC which is why ALL men need to be excluded from SSS.
A GRC does not chop off a penis or reduce/remove the height/weight advantage of men v women if a physical/sexual assault was to be threatened or occur which is why protecting SSS is so important.

serendipitea · 15/02/2025 14:53

Good to see the discussion continuing.

One thing I don't understand: what does it mean to take observations, in the context of the Emergency rooms? Does this mean staying in the room and keeping an eye on the displays ? Or taking measurements and writing down the vitals onto a paper record? When allegedly SP asked DU to do so, does that mean that she kept him from doing other urgent tasks? Was he just walking though and she detained him? I can't picture what is supposed to have happened here.

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 15/02/2025 14:55

Manxexile · 15/02/2025 13:59

@RedToothBrush - "... Sandie didn't go to her union for support at a key moment. Why? Because she knew her union wouldn't support her on this issue..."

Slightly off topic but I asked this in a previous thread (ERCC?) and I'm not sure it was answered.

If SP or any other employee in a similar situation went to their union for help/advice/represenatation and the union refused - or only did a halfhearted job - because the union were captured by the idea that TWAW and believed GC members to be bigoted transphobes, wouldn't the member of the union have a discrimination claim against the union?

Isn't the union legally obliged to reperesent their GC member equally as well as a TWAW member?

Edited

Yes me. CWU when I worked in communications.

Needspaceforlego · 15/02/2025 14:56

Merrymouse · 15/02/2025 14:14

I'm suspicious that this might not be referring to UK law.

If it were true there would be more test cases to refer to.

I hope your right.

SerafinasGoose · 15/02/2025 14:57

Manxexile · 15/02/2025 14:35

This reflects very much what I believe.

I used to be very much a socialist but I would now describe myself as a conservative on social matters although I remain left leaning on economic matters.

Over the last 30 years or so the political left have moved away from the ordinary or working class person - the sort of person who should be their natural constituency - on social issues and have allowed themselves to be aligned to minority interests that are not as widely shared as the left would like to believe.

Frankly, with every year that passes I have less and less idea. All I do see is that the left as it currently packages itself has little if anything to do with the left as I once understood it. And in terms of economics, successive years of neoliberalism under Thatcher, Blair and beyond seems to have done us few favours (and blurred the lines between traditional right and traditional left still further). Had we not had an independent candidate in our constituency in the last GE I'd have spoiled my ballot paper for the first time in my life.

I've tried to reflect honestly whether my own change in attitude is simply that I'm following that old mantra of becoming more conservative as I get older, or whether the left, left me. I don't rightly know. Part of this is certainly because of unprecedented shifts in the political landscape that have left certain values behind, and because we are now experiencing the most sustained and vicious assault on women's rights I've witnessed during my lifetime.

As it is, I now regard myself as politically homeless.

usernameinserthere · 15/02/2025 14:57

JamMakingWannaBe · 15/02/2025 14:52

"I’m a lawyer and baffled that someone who doesn’t have a GRC was allowed into a single sex space."
But women have no way of knowing, and it's not possible to ask/ascertain, if a man has a GRC which is why ALL men need to be excluded from SSS.
A GRC does not chop off a penis or reduce/remove the height/weight advantage of men v women if a physical/sexual assault was to be threatened or occur which is why protecting SSS is so important.

I agree on that too - but as a basic point of law I fail to see how Fife arrived at that point,

Even if Upton had a GRC Peggie should still have brought her case. But absent one - a legal man was in a single sex space for legal women. I know a GRC does not a biological sex change make but it’s the only legal way to at least attempt to breach single sex spaces.

Largofesse · 15/02/2025 15:03

Violetparis · 15/02/2025 08:57

Has anyone on here done NHS England's EDI online training recently ? One of the questions on there was about a transgender colleague accessing toilets and the 'correct' answer was that they were allowed to use the toilet that matched their gender identity. This ideological nonsense is embedded in NHS policy across the UK.

Legally there is a very important difference. This about changing rooms because nurses are required to change at work and because of that requirement Employment Law makes clear the employer has to provide male and female facilities. I think that the staff involved have not understood that very important distinction.

Conxis · 15/02/2025 15:04

They have to contest it. Because if one staff member, just one, of a captured organisation starts to make concessions like this, then the precarious foundation underpinning GI - not only in NHS Fife but in general - begins to shift, and the whole comes tumbling down like a house of cards.

Yes you're probably right @SerafinasGoose
I think it's quite a risk for a senior consultant though. Put in that situation I'd land my employer in it rather than risk reporting to GMC for answering under oath I didn't know the medical difference between a male and a female!

KnutsfordCityLimits · 15/02/2025 15:06

Yes @serendipitea it'll be doing things like blood pressure, heart rate, oxygen sats, respiration rate, generally now recorded electronically. If Sandie was the floor coordinator in A&E and she was required elsewhere for its smooth running, and DU was in with a patient anyway, this wouldn't be unusual AFAIK.

Stitchmarker · 15/02/2025 15:08

RedToothBrush · 15/02/2025 09:44

I'm going to quote this as it's such an important point and it's the one that locks into British politics over the last decade or so in multiple ways.

The employment tribunal, which will continue into the summer because of NHS Fife’s inability to produce essential documents in time, has not only exposed the nebulous nature of gender identity theory – that a human being can change their sex through sheer will – but the ingrained class divide at the heart of the NHS that also characterises the debate around gender.

Gender identity theory is largely a middle-class pursuit, a fake radicalism which doesn't bother its pretty little head with tackling the material causes of poverty and inequality. Instead, as feminist writer Sheila Jeffries argued in 2014, it is a social construct designed to maintain male dominance. And since its inception, the National Health Service has put the demands of the doctor class first before the needs of the largely working-class nursing and support staff.

Middle-class arrogance
Former Labour MSP Jenny Marra, who attended the tribunal over several days, said the evidence reeked of class and entitlement. She observed: "Middle-class arrogant male doctor breaches nurse's boundaries is not a new story. But this time the doctor is facing down the nurse with the backing of politicians and illegal guidelines drawn up by public sector officials who have been hoodwinked into betraying reality and the many working-class women at the frontline of our public services.”

It is not surprising that middle-class professionals, whether doctors, HR managers or even politicians, have found comfort in the simplistic politics of identity. How much easier it is to pin a trans ally badge on a set of scrubs or business suit than begin to tackle the centuries’ old structural issues that trap millions of women in low-paid jobs, poor housing and ill-health, often at risk of sexual violence and abuse.

Sandie didn't go to her union for support at a key moment. Why? Because she knew her union wouldn't support her on this issue.

Time and again we see this pattern of those with power and influence denying an issue and saying there's no evince of an issue.

But they also get to gate keep and decide what constitutes evidence and what doesn't - like Upton did.

I've said this on various themes over the years in various ways: absence of evidence does not indicate an absence of a problem. It might mean you just aren't quantifying something that might be starring you in the face and there's the temptation for those in power to be dismissive as a result. But it doesn't stop a problem if you deny it.

Some examples of this: my classic MN one - Bounty. The NHS denied there was an issue because they didn't have complaints even though if you looked in here there were hundreds. They were blind to the problem and didn't want to acknowledge it and they had a conflict of interest over it. They didn't want to acknowledge the inappropriateness of facilitating high pressure sales tactics in a ward setting nor how this raised questions over dubious consent through undue pressure.

Ditto maternity care across the board.

Then we have Brexit - and one of the things the leave campaign tapped into was this sense of public sector waste and this middle class prioritisation and punching down. Dominic Cummings had it firmly in his sights long before Elon has come along in the US to try to do the same. I think people are forgetting what happened here, has hugely influenced what has subsequently happened in the US not the other way round. Now that is starting to reverse some what. But the seeds of this, didn't come from the likes of Trump leading the way. There was a huge amount of public dissatisfaction and concern that the Leave campaign recognised could be tapped into and collectively become an anti status quo / anti establishment vote rather than actual being anything to the European Union as such.

Now despite having left the EU, many of the actual issues that led to people voting for Brexit have not even been looked at. That's why support for the Tories to 'deliver Brexit' has collapsed. Cos it never really was about leaving the EU in so many respects. And these underlying issues of discontent remain.

Labour isn't doing a great job of identifying this.

Gender identity or more correctly, EDI stuff was one of these issues. When you look at polling of world views for voters from the referendum a few of the startling things is how polarised views were between pro-brexit and anti-brexit voters on subjects relating to anything which falls broadly under the umbrella of progressive activism.

It's widely been put down to, by middle class types, as regressive and bigoted views.

In reality I think it's more complex than that - it's been a concern about virtue signalling and performative issues being prioritised to the neglect of practical everyday boring functional concerns with a hell of a lot of money spent on looking good rather than dealing with systematic problems people face daily but have been neglected.

And that's what has allowed the rise of Trump and the re-emergance of Farage.

And that's not going to go away.

That's why discussions over why we have EDI departments taking precedence over the legal department and acting against the HR department are important. And why looking at how inexperienced highly paid graduates who have been conditioned by ideology over understanding of matters of law which protect junior members of staff are important.

What is apparent is despite EDI supposedly being about recognising the invisibility and lack of voice of certain groups the reality is EDI has successfully been used as a way to silence others at the expense of actual equality. It's been used to preserve the status and power of the middle classes and their beliefs over the working class rather than for what it claims to stand for.

Now I'm middle class and I was pro remain. And I wouldn't vote for Farage (or Trump if I could) in a million years. Because I know and see what they are.

But I have been saying a lot of this stuff about class since before the referendum. And it's only becoming more and more apparent in terms of a failure to listen to people without power about the problems and concerns they face on a daily basis.

This is why gender v sex isn't going to vanish in a puff of smoke. Because underneath all of it is the sheer level of sexism and sexual abuse based on sex that women see and feel and experience on a daily basis.

The trans argument sits on the corner point of class issues and sex based issues and outside typical left v right politics but very much within authoritarian existing power v incoming authoritarian power battles. That's why it's so pivotal. It has implications and ramifications far beyond 'just wanting to pee'. It is about who controls access to women in many respects. And women are not being allowed to say 'oh well actually I'm fighting for myself and to hell with both groups trying to use this area to control me'. And the media facilitate this dynamic because ultimately they are not separate from authority because they ARE that authority.

There's various grass roots groups out there on all manner of subjects who have sprung up in this climate of dissatisfaction and these two new centres of power are competing for ownership of them.

This is why I find individual voices and the grass roots stuff that MN is very good at allowing to flourish independently so important and compelling.

I think this Scotsman article is so hugely important for all these reasons. It gets to grips with many aspects of how and why we are at the point we are.

I post in the hope that it helps to get others to have the penny drop in terms of how it all joins up and fits into ongoing much broader political changes.

Unless Labour sees this problem as it is, not as they want it to be, it will haunt them until the next election and it WILL cost them dear. To put it bluntly constituency demographics don't favour them well enough to sit on their hands and do nothing.

For whatever reason that motivates him, Streeting sees this very clearly indeed and I find that fascinating in its own right. His support for the Darlington Nurses (note Darlington) is as tactical as it is sane.

Great post @RedToothBrush

SerafinasGoose · 15/02/2025 15:09

Conxis · 15/02/2025 15:04

They have to contest it. Because if one staff member, just one, of a captured organisation starts to make concessions like this, then the precarious foundation underpinning GI - not only in NHS Fife but in general - begins to shift, and the whole comes tumbling down like a house of cards.

Yes you're probably right @SerafinasGoose
I think it's quite a risk for a senior consultant though. Put in that situation I'd land my employer in it rather than risk reporting to GMC for answering under oath I didn't know the medical difference between a male and a female!

It will certainly be very interesting to see how that one plays out. The result is going to set an important future precedent either for good or ill.

And I agree. To watch a bunch of medical professionals holding the line that differentiating between male and female is so impossible that it requires the opinion of a scientific 'expert' left me slack-jawed on more than one occasion.

These are trained doctors and qualified nurses. WTF? 😂

DeanElderberry · 15/02/2025 15:10

When the refers to a naked man in the women's changing room as 'the woman's state of undress... likely to be connected with the fact that she is a transgender woman...'
You know you have lost.
It was a naked person with male genitalia changing in the female changing room.

So women are going to have to start stating 'state of undress revealing cock'n'balls' because members of the judiciary (claim to) no longer know the difference between men and women? Maybe even follow up with some reference to transmen being welcome.

it is so binky-bonkers.

sorry, that was in response to @Newtt upthread

Swashbuckled · 15/02/2025 15:10

Well, I keep enjoying a pleasant little daydream.

NC receives an email from Fife nurses explaining that they didn’t know the reason behind the suspension until they read the media reports. They share their opinions.

At the next stage of the ET, NC mentions this. “Is the email in the new bundle?” asks J. “Yes” says NC “p.996. And there’s 40 of them here right now; some managed to get seats and the rest are standing in the lobby.”

The seated ones stand, the others trickle in through the doors.

It’s all very Spartacus. “I too am
Sandie Peggie” they each say as they stand, or enter the room.

(Pleasant daydream inspired by the PPs who posted the call to Fife nurses.)

WellIwasaGiraffeonce · 15/02/2025 15:14

Swashbuckled · 15/02/2025 15:10

Well, I keep enjoying a pleasant little daydream.

NC receives an email from Fife nurses explaining that they didn’t know the reason behind the suspension until they read the media reports. They share their opinions.

At the next stage of the ET, NC mentions this. “Is the email in the new bundle?” asks J. “Yes” says NC “p.996. And there’s 40 of them here right now; some managed to get seats and the rest are standing in the lobby.”

The seated ones stand, the others trickle in through the doors.

It’s all very Spartacus. “I too am
Sandie Peggie” they each say as they stand, or enter the room.

(Pleasant daydream inspired by the PPs who posted the call to Fife nurses.)

Sandie's daughter - Nicole? - posted on Twitter about fake colleagues not standing up for her Mum. Well now is the time, the Emperor's Clothes are truly off and a man is being called a man...... it would be great to witness, I share your daydream.

Stitchmarker · 15/02/2025 15:20

Violetparis · 15/02/2025 10:30

That's interesting. I mentioned it to my line manager who agreed it was a load of rubbish but we didn't take it further. If it's still the same next time I have to complete I will email HR.

I think if I ever have to sit through training that says this, I will be contacting the health and safety as well as HR team.

Manxexile · 15/02/2025 15:26

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 15/02/2025 14:55

Yes me. CWU when I worked in communications.

So they assisted you in asserting a gender critical view against an employer or colleague asserting TWAW?

PrettyDamnCosmic · 15/02/2025 15:26

I've been lurking following the case for the last few days so I thought that I should de-lurk. I am male & a retired A&E consultant so I have found this case particularly interesting.
Tthey have bent over backwards to accommodate Dr Upton's penchant for dressing up as a woman. It's gobsmacking that anyone especially Dr Upton should think it acceptable for a male to invade a female single sex space. The way that Sandie Peggie's case was handled was absolutely appalling & bloody typical of incompetent NHS management. She is going to win the case because they didn't handle the disciplinary process correctly. They put Sandie on 'Special Leave' then suspension & spun out the process until Dr Upton moved on to another department so there was no proper investigation of the complaint of bullying & harassment.

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 15/02/2025 15:27

While it would be nice for Sandie's colleagues to stand up for her, I think it's understandable that they are scared to do so. Not many people can afford to lose their job.

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