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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #19

1000 replies

nauticant · 14/02/2025 18:06

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It seems that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July but it wasn't completely clear whether it might end a day or two later.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18

OP posts:
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15
ThatsNotMyTeen · 15/02/2025 12:52

Oh I can totally believe the mollycoddled, over privileged twat had never been stood up to at all in his life

GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · 15/02/2025 12:52

HootyMcBoobs · 15/02/2025 11:56

But so what if she DID mention chromosomes?

I don't get why that is a hate word all of a sudden.

Actually I do, it instantly renders their pathetic arguments redundant and they don't like that.

I think it lends itself more to the idea that asking about chromosomes is a more intrusive question & a breach of personal privacy (especially if someone had a condition linked to abnormal chromosome conditions/DSDs) so adds weight to DU's victimhood claims because she was being inappropriately intrusive with what she said - whereas SP's version of the conversation focused on male/female differentiation because it's a female CR & he's male, and shouldn't be there.

That's why I think he's lying about this too. He admitted she didn't name Bryson so his claims she compared him to a convicted rapist is - at best - a hyperbolic bad faith retcon interpretation of SP's words. So for me, I think the claim she mentioned or questioned his chromosomes is more embellishment/fantasy.

Again, just my opinion based on what I've seen/heard/read. It's not my opinion that'll decide the outcome.

WellIwasaGiraffeonce · 15/02/2025 12:54

Sortumn · 15/02/2025 12:41

Something is troubling me about ED so glibly repeating the claim of BU about SP comparing him to Isla Bryson.
BU's own testimony admits this was an assumption on his part.
At some point in Fife's process SP must have had to give some sort of statement about how the CR interaction proceeded? This must have been documented. Surely by the time it gets to tribunal ED must have had sight of this and know that there's a discrepancy there. How can she repeat DU's claim with such confidence?

She did so so the link is associated in the minds of the Tribunal, whether or not it is true is a different matter. She will have been "encouraged" to do so no doubt.

Datun · 15/02/2025 12:57

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 15/02/2025 10:01

That's very clever. And entirely accurate. Very good job

booft · 15/02/2025 12:59

Thelnebriati · 14/02/2025 21:34

How did this ever get to tribunal? A workplace has to offer single sex toilets, changing and showers. Its the law.

Simple isn't it. This is like a runaway train and nobody can get off.

Do NHS management actually believe Dr Upton? I doubt it.

I wonder if, in private, they all believe SP is right but just cannot be seen to diverge from the party line.

Orwellian.

NoWordForFluffy · 15/02/2025 13:00

GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · 15/02/2025 12:52

I think it lends itself more to the idea that asking about chromosomes is a more intrusive question & a breach of personal privacy (especially if someone had a condition linked to abnormal chromosome conditions/DSDs) so adds weight to DU's victimhood claims because she was being inappropriately intrusive with what she said - whereas SP's version of the conversation focused on male/female differentiation because it's a female CR & he's male, and shouldn't be there.

That's why I think he's lying about this too. He admitted she didn't name Bryson so his claims she compared him to a convicted rapist is - at best - a hyperbolic bad faith retcon interpretation of SP's words. So for me, I think the claim she mentioned or questioned his chromosomes is more embellishment/fantasy.

Again, just my opinion based on what I've seen/heard/read. It's not my opinion that'll decide the outcome.

Well, we know he's not averse to talking shite, given his further allegations re Sandie which he then downplayed under questioning at the Tribunal (potentially realising he'd jumped the shark at the time and the consequences for him of having done so). So yeah, I reckon he over-egged the conversation content in the CR as well.

I also need to thank @nauticant and @ickky for their services to MNers throughout the Tribunal. I've read most of the threads, but they've moved too quickly to post on as I've always been on catch up, not 'live'!

WellIwasaGiraffeonce · 15/02/2025 13:01

booft · 15/02/2025 12:59

Simple isn't it. This is like a runaway train and nobody can get off.

Do NHS management actually believe Dr Upton? I doubt it.

I wonder if, in private, they all believe SP is right but just cannot be seen to diverge from the party line.

Orwellian.

He is asserting he is a female because he says so.

And he needs SP out of the way because she challenges his nonsense and outright lies.

CheekySnake · 15/02/2025 13:03

Sortumn · 15/02/2025 12:41

Something is troubling me about ED so glibly repeating the claim of BU about SP comparing him to Isla Bryson.
BU's own testimony admits this was an assumption on his part.
At some point in Fife's process SP must have had to give some sort of statement about how the CR interaction proceeded? This must have been documented. Surely by the time it gets to tribunal ED must have had sight of this and know that there's a discrepancy there. How can she repeat DU's claim with such confidence?

They seem to have taken Upton's version of events as being honest and truthful without any thought that it might not be. I'm not sure when SP was finally asked to give her side but it wasn't until after she'd been suspended (based on Upton's suggestion that there was a vague possibility that she might behave in a way that might put patients at risk based on assumptions he'd made about a situation that didn't happen).

It does seem fairly clear that he was priming KS for this from the start of his A&E rotation - comments to her about SP leaving the changing room if he was in it, telling her he didn't want to escalate this (because he's So Reasonable), but planting the seed so that when he threw his xmas eve wobbly the idea that he was being bullied over the changing room was already in her head and she immediately jumped to support him based on nothing more than his version of events. And then we've got ED, who seems to have initially thought SP had a point, but after checking with IB and being told they could under no circumstances boot him from the ladies, has dealt with it ignoring it and hoping it would go away.

I really want to know what KS has to say. I can imagine that Upton was a pain in the neck to manage.

NImumconfused · 15/02/2025 13:05

Theeyeballsinthesky · 15/02/2025 09:03

A perfect example of stonewall law in action

Yep, I checked our online training and it says the same, plus that we should always use their preferred pronouns and never ask them any questions about their transition - put up and shut up in other words!

Mittens67 · 15/02/2025 13:06

RedToothBrush · 15/02/2025 09:44

I'm going to quote this as it's such an important point and it's the one that locks into British politics over the last decade or so in multiple ways.

The employment tribunal, which will continue into the summer because of NHS Fife’s inability to produce essential documents in time, has not only exposed the nebulous nature of gender identity theory – that a human being can change their sex through sheer will – but the ingrained class divide at the heart of the NHS that also characterises the debate around gender.

Gender identity theory is largely a middle-class pursuit, a fake radicalism which doesn't bother its pretty little head with tackling the material causes of poverty and inequality. Instead, as feminist writer Sheila Jeffries argued in 2014, it is a social construct designed to maintain male dominance. And since its inception, the National Health Service has put the demands of the doctor class first before the needs of the largely working-class nursing and support staff.

Middle-class arrogance
Former Labour MSP Jenny Marra, who attended the tribunal over several days, said the evidence reeked of class and entitlement. She observed: "Middle-class arrogant male doctor breaches nurse's boundaries is not a new story. But this time the doctor is facing down the nurse with the backing of politicians and illegal guidelines drawn up by public sector officials who have been hoodwinked into betraying reality and the many working-class women at the frontline of our public services.”

It is not surprising that middle-class professionals, whether doctors, HR managers or even politicians, have found comfort in the simplistic politics of identity. How much easier it is to pin a trans ally badge on a set of scrubs or business suit than begin to tackle the centuries’ old structural issues that trap millions of women in low-paid jobs, poor housing and ill-health, often at risk of sexual violence and abuse.

Sandie didn't go to her union for support at a key moment. Why? Because she knew her union wouldn't support her on this issue.

Time and again we see this pattern of those with power and influence denying an issue and saying there's no evince of an issue.

But they also get to gate keep and decide what constitutes evidence and what doesn't - like Upton did.

I've said this on various themes over the years in various ways: absence of evidence does not indicate an absence of a problem. It might mean you just aren't quantifying something that might be starring you in the face and there's the temptation for those in power to be dismissive as a result. But it doesn't stop a problem if you deny it.

Some examples of this: my classic MN one - Bounty. The NHS denied there was an issue because they didn't have complaints even though if you looked in here there were hundreds. They were blind to the problem and didn't want to acknowledge it and they had a conflict of interest over it. They didn't want to acknowledge the inappropriateness of facilitating high pressure sales tactics in a ward setting nor how this raised questions over dubious consent through undue pressure.

Ditto maternity care across the board.

Then we have Brexit - and one of the things the leave campaign tapped into was this sense of public sector waste and this middle class prioritisation and punching down. Dominic Cummings had it firmly in his sights long before Elon has come along in the US to try to do the same. I think people are forgetting what happened here, has hugely influenced what has subsequently happened in the US not the other way round. Now that is starting to reverse some what. But the seeds of this, didn't come from the likes of Trump leading the way. There was a huge amount of public dissatisfaction and concern that the Leave campaign recognised could be tapped into and collectively become an anti status quo / anti establishment vote rather than actual being anything to the European Union as such.

Now despite having left the EU, many of the actual issues that led to people voting for Brexit have not even been looked at. That's why support for the Tories to 'deliver Brexit' has collapsed. Cos it never really was about leaving the EU in so many respects. And these underlying issues of discontent remain.

Labour isn't doing a great job of identifying this.

Gender identity or more correctly, EDI stuff was one of these issues. When you look at polling of world views for voters from the referendum a few of the startling things is how polarised views were between pro-brexit and anti-brexit voters on subjects relating to anything which falls broadly under the umbrella of progressive activism.

It's widely been put down to, by middle class types, as regressive and bigoted views.

In reality I think it's more complex than that - it's been a concern about virtue signalling and performative issues being prioritised to the neglect of practical everyday boring functional concerns with a hell of a lot of money spent on looking good rather than dealing with systematic problems people face daily but have been neglected.

And that's what has allowed the rise of Trump and the re-emergance of Farage.

And that's not going to go away.

That's why discussions over why we have EDI departments taking precedence over the legal department and acting against the HR department are important. And why looking at how inexperienced highly paid graduates who have been conditioned by ideology over understanding of matters of law which protect junior members of staff are important.

What is apparent is despite EDI supposedly being about recognising the invisibility and lack of voice of certain groups the reality is EDI has successfully been used as a way to silence others at the expense of actual equality. It's been used to preserve the status and power of the middle classes and their beliefs over the working class rather than for what it claims to stand for.

Now I'm middle class and I was pro remain. And I wouldn't vote for Farage (or Trump if I could) in a million years. Because I know and see what they are.

But I have been saying a lot of this stuff about class since before the referendum. And it's only becoming more and more apparent in terms of a failure to listen to people without power about the problems and concerns they face on a daily basis.

This is why gender v sex isn't going to vanish in a puff of smoke. Because underneath all of it is the sheer level of sexism and sexual abuse based on sex that women see and feel and experience on a daily basis.

The trans argument sits on the corner point of class issues and sex based issues and outside typical left v right politics but very much within authoritarian existing power v incoming authoritarian power battles. That's why it's so pivotal. It has implications and ramifications far beyond 'just wanting to pee'. It is about who controls access to women in many respects. And women are not being allowed to say 'oh well actually I'm fighting for myself and to hell with both groups trying to use this area to control me'. And the media facilitate this dynamic because ultimately they are not separate from authority because they ARE that authority.

There's various grass roots groups out there on all manner of subjects who have sprung up in this climate of dissatisfaction and these two new centres of power are competing for ownership of them.

This is why I find individual voices and the grass roots stuff that MN is very good at allowing to flourish independently so important and compelling.

I think this Scotsman article is so hugely important for all these reasons. It gets to grips with many aspects of how and why we are at the point we are.

I post in the hope that it helps to get others to have the penny drop in terms of how it all joins up and fits into ongoing much broader political changes.

Unless Labour sees this problem as it is, not as they want it to be, it will haunt them until the next election and it WILL cost them dear. To put it bluntly constituency demographics don't favour them well enough to sit on their hands and do nothing.

For whatever reason that motivates him, Streeting sees this very clearly indeed and I find that fascinating in its own right. His support for the Darlington Nurses (note Darlington) is as tactical as it is sane.

Fabulous post. Totally agree with everything you have written.

Thank you. I don’t know what you do for a living but I wish it was politics on a major scale. We need people like you.

mrshoho · 15/02/2025 13:09

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11027471/Trans-NHS-worker-wins-discrimination-case-confronted-underwear.html

Looking back at this case, I wonder if the outcome of the tribunal contributed in some way as to how NHS trusts handle trans employees? I remember at the time thinking how the needs of female staff kept being overlooked. From memory I don't think these employees were clinical staff but I wonder how the changing room facilities at this trust are run now.

WellIwasaGiraffeonce · 15/02/2025 13:11

ThatsNotMyTeen · 15/02/2025 12:52

Oh I can totally believe the mollycoddled, over privileged twat had never been stood up to at all in his life

He has only been a transvestite for 2 or maybe 3 years, why would anyone say such a thing beforehand when he wasn't misrepresenting his sex and dressing in womens clothes? I agree, he is just a twerp he seems to have got his own way too often and his friends and family assist in his delusions.

DontTellMeWhat2Do · 15/02/2025 13:15

if wingsoverscotland are to be believed....
A woman on the board of NHS Fife is married to another woman who is an NHS Fife Union Representative.
The boardwoman appears to a former Labour Councillor who was suspended for making anti semitic comments.
If any of this is true - what the fuck is going on in the NHS??

JasmineAllen · 15/02/2025 13:17

GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · 15/02/2025 12:52

I think it lends itself more to the idea that asking about chromosomes is a more intrusive question & a breach of personal privacy (especially if someone had a condition linked to abnormal chromosome conditions/DSDs) so adds weight to DU's victimhood claims because she was being inappropriately intrusive with what she said - whereas SP's version of the conversation focused on male/female differentiation because it's a female CR & he's male, and shouldn't be there.

That's why I think he's lying about this too. He admitted she didn't name Bryson so his claims she compared him to a convicted rapist is - at best - a hyperbolic bad faith retcon interpretation of SP's words. So for me, I think the claim she mentioned or questioned his chromosomes is more embellishment/fantasy.

Again, just my opinion based on what I've seen/heard/read. It's not my opinion that'll decide the outcome.

So DU isn't only larping as a woman, he's also larping as someone with DSD just so he can get his own way. How reprehensible.

RogueFemale · 15/02/2025 13:20

Zebracat · 15/02/2025 00:20

Has anyone else read Jonathan Browns comments on x? He’s an advocate at Faculty of Advocates. Quite clear that Fife have shown themselves massively incompetent by relying on the word of a not legally trained de advisor rather than seeking guidance from NHS Scotlands shit hot legal department. And says so much more. I tried to make a link but it proved beyond me. Worth a read. He clearly thinks Fife have lost.

I can't do links either but for anyone who can, his X username is Broonjunior

Manxexile · 15/02/2025 13:21

From @RedToothBrush 's post earlier today quoting Jonathan Brown:

"... He also says
Jonathan Brown AT broonjunior
One of the curiosities of the Peggie case is that the underlying legal issue isn’t at all difficult. Is Ms Peggie entitled to a single sex changing room? Yes. Does Dr Upton’s self declared gender identity give entry to the opposite sex changing room? No. Is there a discretion? No. ..."

This is what I am at a complete loss to understand.

The law seems to be clear that employers MUST provide separate changing facilities for men and women. It's in the 1992 Workplace Regulations and not up for debate

The reference to men and women in the 1992 regulations must refer to biological sex (no-one at the time would have believed it possible to transition from male to female) and can't have anything to do with one's self-perceived gender

RedToothBrush · 15/02/2025 13:22

Mittens67 · 15/02/2025 13:06

Fabulous post. Totally agree with everything you have written.

Thank you. I don’t know what you do for a living but I wish it was politics on a major scale. We need people like you.

I don't do anything with it for a living. I just like politics and do this for fun because I like helping people understand what's happening.

That's genuinely it, though I know people don't believe this.

It's ironic because I can't actually do anything with it in terms of career. I havent got the right qualifications and I haven't got the right connections and I have zero interest in running around in circles to change that. Especially since I don't know I'd want to work in an area where it's useful because they are so full of the morally devoid.

Shrugs.

So MN is stuck with me.

I figure it's more useful here than anywhere else tbh. I still believe in the value of grass roots.

CheekySnake · 15/02/2025 13:24

Manxexile · 15/02/2025 13:21

From @RedToothBrush 's post earlier today quoting Jonathan Brown:

"... He also says
Jonathan Brown AT broonjunior
One of the curiosities of the Peggie case is that the underlying legal issue isn’t at all difficult. Is Ms Peggie entitled to a single sex changing room? Yes. Does Dr Upton’s self declared gender identity give entry to the opposite sex changing room? No. Is there a discretion? No. ..."

This is what I am at a complete loss to understand.

The law seems to be clear that employers MUST provide separate changing facilities for men and women. It's in the 1992 Workplace Regulations and not up for debate

The reference to men and women in the 1992 regulations must refer to biological sex (no-one at the time would have believed it possible to transition from male to female) and can't have anything to do with one's self-perceived gender

And in 1992 it wasn't possible to change your legal sex so it couldn't possibly refer to anything other than sex at birth as shown by the birth cert.

PachacutisBadAuntie · 15/02/2025 13:25

RogueFemale · 15/02/2025 13:20

I can't do links either but for anyone who can, his X username is Broonjunior

Here's a nitter link
https://nitter.net/Broonjunior

Peregrina · 15/02/2025 13:25

www.theguardian.com/books/2025/feb/15/cancel-culture-we-should-stop-it-end-of-story-chimamanda-ngozi-adichie-on-backlash-writers-block-and-her-two-new-babies

Partly relevant because it discusses Adichie's experience of cancel culture for saying, "trans women are trans women." (Instead of the approved and expected TWAW). She makes a very salient point for this case,...

My opinion of this is that the Guardian, fully on the TWAW bandwagon, have seen that it looks to be heading for a crash, and are trying to start jumping off. With luck, another band wagon will roll past and they can jump onto that.

I say this as one who was brought up in a Guardian reading household, but the TW nonsense put me off it about 10 -15 years ago.

For this particular case I am finding the Times and Telegraph much more reliable, yet I don't agree with the Torygraph's politics.

Jerabilis · 15/02/2025 13:26

Thinking back this morning, particularly with all the messages from lurkers, I wanted to say how bloody glad I am for the space Mumsnet has provided for women to talk to each other on this issue.

I've been permanently banned from Reddit for daring to reject the TWAW mantra and it's so cooked into so many of our workplaces that talking about it in real life has been incredibly risky, although that tide feels like it's turning.

Mumsnet has formed a huge part of our ability to organise in the UK that means this issue hasn't just been completely left to the traditional political right.

RedToothBrush · 15/02/2025 13:27

mrshoho · 15/02/2025 13:09

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11027471/Trans-NHS-worker-wins-discrimination-case-confronted-underwear.html

Looking back at this case, I wonder if the outcome of the tribunal contributed in some way as to how NHS trusts handle trans employees? I remember at the time thinking how the needs of female staff kept being overlooked. From memory I don't think these employees were clinical staff but I wonder how the changing room facilities at this trust are run now.

Some of incidents should never have happened.

But they come down to a failure by the trust to recognise sex.

This left the trans worker vulnerable.

It also left women unable to speak up through official channels to protect themselves.

Thus they took matters into their own hands.

And unfortunately that's going to happen if you ignore the core of the problem; women can say no and it affects their privacy and dignity.

Conxis · 15/02/2025 13:29

I really want to know what KS has to say. I can imagine that Upton was a pain in the neck to manage.

If I were KS I don't think I would even contest this.
We know NC is going to ask her about Upton's sex, she's said that. I foresee a range of questions around "if Dr Upton presented in A&E would you use this set of norms for his tests results or this set? Oh you'd wouldn't use the female ones because...?" Risks for KS professionally if she doesn't answer correctly from a medical point of view is there not?
I'd put my hand up and say it's a fair cop, I handled the complaint wrongly and I need retraining!

Manxexile · 15/02/2025 13:30

fanOfBen · 15/02/2025 08:18

NC hammered home the point yesterday that nurses have to change at work - considered unacceptable to travel on a bus in scrubs for example, for hygiene reasons. Similarly with toilet cubicles. They could have traipsed to the basement place at the end of every shift, but if they'd all done that, so would Upton have done.

Yes.

I can't believe that ED (or any other NHS Fife manager) could realistically and with a straight face suggest that nurses changing in a toilet cubicle was in any way acceptable acceptable from a clinical hygiene perspective.

The infection control people at my former NHS trust would have been apoplectic at the suggestion.

Merrymouse · 15/02/2025 13:30

HootyMcBoobs · 15/02/2025 11:56

But so what if she DID mention chromosomes?

I don't get why that is a hate word all of a sudden.

Actually I do, it instantly renders their pathetic arguments redundant and they don't like that.

You have to go back to the NHS's apparent belief that Dr Upton had a right to be there - from that POV, the only reason to bring up sex would be to harass Dr Upton.

It's not clear why they still held this belief in January 2024, when SP had raised the issue months earlier, and this was all a very current issue in Equality Law and Scottish politics. The most charitable interpretation would be that the DEI department were following their NHS training course instead of providing expertise.

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