NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #18

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming in July (current best estimate). The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17

NC She's entitled to privacy and dignity in a CR

ED SP can answer that

NC I said I'd come back to SX mtg at the end

JR If we're about to finish..

J I'd like to finish cross at lunch

NC [notes re SX mtg: reads re her coming in and her angry demeaner and her not wanting to

According to ED's logic, the lovely Tiffany Scott should have been admitted to a women's prison...

Interesting that DU jumped to thinking that SP was referring to Isla Bryson. We've had a wee bit of a problem with Fife male criminals being or trying to get into the female prison estate.

Off the top of my head: Lennon/Katie Dolatowski (sex offender/attempted rapist of a minor in a supermarket toilet) - from Kirkcaldy. Has oscillated between female and male estate.

Andrew Burns/Mr Mighty Almighty/Obi Wan Kenobi/Mitzababy/Tiffany Scott (various crimes of violence/staked a 13 yr old girl from his prison cell) - Kinglassie - village between Kirkcaldy and Glenrothes. Tried to get into the female prison estate. Died in a male prison.

Peter Laing/Paris Green sex offender/murderer (He and 2 other men tortured and violated a man to death.) From Glenrothes - the next town to Kirkcaldy. Has oscillated between the female and male estate.

Any Fifer who has kept abreast of the news will know about that lot. Strange that DU only jumped to thinking about rapist "Isla Bryson".

Are they going to tal about what an OH referral was supposed to achieve? Re education of SP until she capitulated?

Woman involved in the suspension of a nurse for harassment which included the claim of 'leaving the changing room when feeling uncomfortable', says under oath if she was in a changing room and felt uncomfortable she'd leave the changing room and it doesn't enter her head that people responsible for suspending people might consider this as harassment.

Boom. My head is exploding.

her to use the CR]

NC Why change her words here?

ED Yes I corrected

NC Is it cos yr so scared you even change SPs words

ED No

NC re her leaving the meeting and finding it bizarre. Can u agree that being treated unjustly it makes u angry

ED If u perceive that

Been through my books on women at Bletchley Park, found her.

Sorry, I digress...

I know! If it was me, I'd find it hard not to scream 'you fuckwit' at this witness.

anyone understand what words of SP's ED is supposed to have changed?

him to her

ED is determined that she will under no circumstances acknowledge that Upton is a bloke.

NC If bare faced denial of reality y're likely to be even more angry?

I dont know as not been in that sitn

NC Think from SPs view: prev been able to change w/out issues. She knows ppl cant change sex, that growing hair or wearing w clothes and makeup doesnt make DU a woman

I wonder if ED is scared to speak freely because Upton's there.

He probably already thinks it's transphobic that ED has said she'd leave the changing room uncomfortable WHICH IS WHAT SP DID!!!

We know he's not. But she's still scared.

NC She knows M and F is about bodies. So as far as she's concerned a man is in CR, She felt bullied and harassed and stood her ground, as did he. She has a history of s assualt. She's bullied and not protected from her bully. She's treated as the aggressor. that's the truth of

She already stated yesterday she has to stick to trust policies at one point (or similar wording)

I don’t think he is there

she is afraid because she might find her job threatened

In case no one answered, @SqueakyDinosaur provided this helpful post yesterday at 22:33:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17?page=16&reply=142152141

NC what's happened and it's not surprising she was angry when suspended

ED E'one entitled to their feelings

NC Heard of DARVO?

No

NC [details darvo] Y've heard of it now. It's what's ahppened isnt it? Bully is Beth and victim is SP. That reversal ahs happened w full approval

Presumably if Upton is allowed to use the women's changing room, NHS Fife is saying that there is no consequence for indecent exposure in their hospital?

I would like to know exactly what was said in the conversation between ED and IB that has left ED unable to acknowledge that Upton is male, even here. What was she threatened with.

It's not indecent exposure if he's pretending to be a woman remember

As the username suggests another lurker here. But I worry that if all lurkers make themselves known Nauticant will be very busy!
Not a mumsnetter originally but stumbled on FWR a few years ago when googling to find information about the Alison Bailey case.
Since then I've - watched tribunals, bought books, donated to more crowdfunders than I can remember, signed petitions, written to MPs / the Labour party / BBC etc.
Thanks to all for your hard work, inciteful commentary, lighthearted asides and introducing me to the world of Tunnocks!
I check FWR most days, and am grateful for all your input, especially in tribunals such as this. I feel a bit bereft when they end / adjourn!

Am i right in thinking ED did not seek HR support but DID seek EDI advice? That's messed up and possibly illegal surely?

Me too. Also lurking.

DARVO.
I hope that's the sound of a million pennies dropping.