NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #16

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming, possibly, in July. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15

I know it's been said before but I just can't get how this is all being discussed in such a vacuum.

What if SP was a devout Muslim or Jewish woman?

It should be irrelevant, of course, and we shouldn't have to have lots of additional justifications for basic privacy and dignity and choice BUT it blows my mind that this was all with the involvement of EDI professionals who seemed completely unable to understand the interfaces and conflicts with other protected characteristics too.

The one positive thing I will say about this today is that after days of listening to and reading what came across as self absorbed self righteous waffle from DU, ED's straight answers to JRs questions is very appreciated. I don't think I could stomach all this if it came with an obfuscating monologue answer to each question.

I hope NC asks what the support actually is, what does it look like, who offers what. She's not going to have forgotten how to nurse, she hasn't been physically ill, she hasn't, as far as I know, said she is suffering stress /anxiety and needing a reduced workload... so what exactly is the "support" package?

I suspect they wanted her resignation.

She'd been there 30 years, they'd probably had the best of her (as they might think in their unfeeling way) and she was only a part timer, anyway.

Beth now - an expensively trained young doctor with maybe a 35-40 year career ahead of him?

No contest.

Yes, him crying, shaking, having to be helped to the car, going off alarming all over Christmas, sounds like they were looking at his reaction, rather than what caused it.

you'd think people at the coal face of stuff in hospitals would be a bit more discerning though

We all know it's a fact by in law speak, it has to say belief.

Irritates the shit out of me too.

Or the leaving a patient bit that seems to get forgotten about and conveniently remembered when useful...

Almost as if everyone knows this part is complete BS.

VV seems to have fallen off the witness list for tomorrow. Perhaps JR has decided they is not going to add anything at all this stage .

Edited for pronouns.

It's a disgusting ideology. There is no other way to describe it.

Boundary eroding, consent ignoring, intimidating and bullying.

It's a bloody gift to predators and bullies everywhere

ED's comment is an own goal.

In order to meet the threshold to be a belief (rather than an opinion), Sandie's GC views have to be unchanging. ED has just shown the court that it is a belief, thus protected in law.

It definitely wasn't the patient as that would be a FTP issue and allowing her to return on shifts that wouldn't coincide with DU wouldn't have been a factor.

100%. The idea that reality is a belief is bonkers but that is where we are at

This always gets pulled up on MN.

Religion shouldn't enter the equation. Women should have the right to single sex spaces and same sex carers. Regardless of their reasons, Muslim, or Nun, or Virgin, sex abuse victim, or just because they are more comfortable with it.

Just because some women wear religious clothing doesn't make their views any more important than anyone else's.

Finding experienced qualified and capable nurses (even stern ones 🙄) who ask to work permanent nights is not easy.

Most EDs would kneel at her feet and welcome her in.

Yes!!

Totally agree.

I don't think EDs evidence does Fife any favours and that's on questioning of her own counsel!

ED - I was hopeful the IX would be finished and HR had the idea that SP could come back in another area, clearly I was

FFS! (again :) )

HR were suggesting that Sandie should move from A+E?? Where she'd worked for many years, and was highly experienced. To appease HIM????

The performative nature of playing the "fragile" woman seems to have been a major factor - but contrast with the very robust and argumentative DU that gave evidence this week.

Hmph. Tried to change my username to "MuchToConsider" but some bugger's already got it.

"The midwife who tells you it's not only women who give birth"

https://www.tiktok.com/@sallypezaro/video/7469343325753986336

Found the Sex is not binary one. Interestingly only five comments. Maybe there's a different one but I recall lots of negative comments including one from me. Must have deleted the wrong think.

https://www.tiktok.com/@sallypezaro/video/7328677673667005728

Yes I know. That's my point....

That's a shame. More zealotry would've been quite useful.

I wonder if their batshit detector has finally kicked in

Sorry that's my literal brain at play again!

I completely agree. But it does come up because while women's rights seem endlessly debatable without any great anxiety, the acceptance of the needs of people of various faiths did seem to be a bit more widely acknowledged and accepted in general - and the spokespeople for those faiths normally come out with clear and strong voices in defence of their needs and requirements.

As someone said up thread it would be very interesting to have a Rabbi or Imam speak about this.

Not because women of faith are more important but because it somehow seems to help people with limited imagination to engage with the problem, and you can then assist them to extrapolate the point from there.

JR - now your IX report what date is that

“your IX report”
that would be the IX that wasn’t started, and even if it was started, definitely never got completed yes?