NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #15

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although once it was in to the second week it was looking like this would not happen. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently, as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14

@nauticant you've done a brilliant job in keeping up to speed with these threads. I've only been able to follow sporadically, but from a cursory skim-read of the later threads what stood out was is how many times DU demanded 'respect' during the course of this hearing. There's a certain variety of man who likes banging that particular drum - and who tends to get very, very irate when they perceive they're not getting it.

A 'Bing' search in this respect is quite revealing. The way the results are displayed is interesting: '"I'm only asking for basic respect" - trans doctor' appears in the left-hand pane, whilst juxtaposed in the pane on the right is the headline: 'I don't have to tell patients I'm trans, insists doctor in NHS row'.

So much for respecting his patients' autonomy and rights to a free choice. And if in doubt, the report goes on to explain: 'A transgender NHS doctor at the centre of a legal dispute over changing rooms has insisted they do not have to disclose their biological sex to patients who request a female physician'.

How 'respectful'.

Amid his many other weaknesses it seems irony is not his strong point.

Where are NHS Fife going to take their legal advice on that suspension from? The current lawyer has a conflict of interest!

They also have to be careful of the victimisation/ detriment claim that he might be able to bring against them.

He's a massive risk for all sorts of reasons but I doubt they'll move straight to suspending him.

Yes, and we know that he was also the judge in Gillian Phillips (GC author) employment tribunal. He was swayed by gender ideology to rule against her.

I’m never going to catch up, but place-marking anyway 🤷‍♀️

@lifeturnsonadime the GMC, if FtP is found (and at times during investigation) then suspension is often dictated by them.

So that concern would have to be reported to them presumably by the trust? Or could they act independently based on what they read?

I'm fairly sure the GMC like the BMA are captured, how likely is that going to happen?

This moving to another 7 days hearing in July means the costs at the end of this will be astronomical. For that reason alone I hope SP wins, and wins big.

If there's one thing that focuses otherwise Queer Theory soaked minds in large orgs (especially ones in the red by £millions) is a heavy cost financially at the end.

It's absolutely shocking how this has all been handled by NHS Fife, but particularly those who were pulled into this in the beginning by DU. The 0-100 reaction & heavy handed treatment (detriment!) of SP is wholly unacceptable & disproportionate when you think how SP was left hanging with no answer when she 1st raised concerns over the mixed sex CR result of DU using the female CR.

Over £12,000 ❤

I did not know this, but it doesn't suprise me.

Thank you @nauticant an absolutely sterling job.

@lifeturnsonadime

I keep getting bolded for some obscure reason.

Anyone of us can raise a complaint with the GMC - as a member of the public. I am intending to as I worry about doctors not respecting patient wishes for same-sex care, but also potential missed diagnoses or inappropriate investigations due to a doctor refusing to accept the very basic principles of biological sex.

Thank you everyone who's contributed, it really is a bonus to have the reporting and analysis in one place.

This has nothing to do with someone being trans; I am sure there are non-trans doctors who may share the same beliefs sadly (nowadays) - this is about patient care and safety. The fact DU is trans doesn't need to come near the concerns raised with the GMC.

Does anyone think they might come up with a better way of viewing. Maybe they'll have time to do it differently. Literally all we need is a viewing feed, no need for mics or cameras. I think Im going to write and suggest this, they might have time to consider it now. Make the Clerks job a darn sight easier too.

I think that was right but what’s even more jaw-dropping is that I believe absolutely nothing happened to those people at the OU.

I think that's why the judge asked about the timing in the carpark and the drive home.

Left around 1am, 50 minute commute, complaint in by 3 something am (is that right).

And by Boxing Day telling BMJ he hasn't heard anything in regard to his complaint.

I don't think NHS Fife has handled this at all well but equally, I'd hate to be his line manager.

Ok I understand what you mean now.

My point was mainly that I don't think that Fife would get involved in trying to suspend DU.

And I know you don't mean for being trans so don't worry.

This is where Fife have really shot themselves in the foot by , presumably, meeting the cost of his legal fees. They can't now take useful independent legal advice from their existing legal team because of the conflict of interests angle.

On institutional capture, the GMC were part of the Stonewall diversity scheme until they suspended it from 2022- 2023, I can't find anything about them reinstating it.

But they were certainly captured and will still, presumably, have policies in place based on that scheme.

I've been out for the afternoon and was nearly in tears in a Lidl queue.

Now to sit down and go through the afternoons TT threadreader.

But KS as a respondent - nice.

Which speaks to that familiar refrain, that we see on threads here in general, not just this one?

"They just didn't seem to think it through, did they?"

That doesn't sound quite like normal due process and standard office hours - well spotted!

Legal peeps - is this something that can get flagged by team NC later? Or is the chance to ask this now gone? Or can they ask another witness?

I hadn't really thought deeply about this happening on Christmas Eve/Christmas Day. It makes the way he responded even more stark. No normal person would be calling round their union, managers etc. You'd wait till the 27th after Boxing Day. Wouldn't anyone normal do that over something so relatively trivial?

@KnottyAuty does not matter it is obvious he knew a rep in the BMA and that is who he spoke to on the phone, which he previously denied.

Thanks all for the updates - I find the analysis of what is happening really informative

thanks I missed that - how on earth will the panel assimilate all this info - with another 4-5 days of evidence to add in July? Very difficult with a gap in between too