NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #15

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although once it was in to the second week it was looking like this would not happen. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently, as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14

The fact is they only suspended one party of a conflict before an investigation had taken place so they’d already decided who was in the wrong. The idea that they were protecting SP is bollocks. This was punishment.

make a decision about who was to remain at work, and about staffing.

JR - taking ED to policy, who made decision to suspend C

ED - ultimately it became my decision, I looked at what the issues were, could I prevent a recurrence, was she unsafe and that led to my decision to

As it goes they’d have been better off suspending DU because he went iff sick anyway.

Continuation thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16

They clearly are not so yes it does. You cannot, in general, discriminate against someone on the basis of their political beliefs regardless of how much you may disagree with them. If ED did favour DU because of her perception of SP's beliefs, that looks like a clear breach of the Equality Act.

Oh wow! That would be brilliant to be able to raise in person!

And yes - as far as I understand if the GMC don't find against a Dr at a PCC then that closes the door to any medico-legal claims. Which is very problematic if the professional standards don't have the capacity or will to deal with the complications which arise out of Self ID

suspend SP on a temporary basis, with the hope that the IX could proceed swiftly and protect both SP and Beth.

JR - why did you think suspension was appropriate

ED - we needed to complete IX into what had happened, just allegations but they could be perceived to be harassment

For anyone who has more NHS knowledge than me, am I right in thinking that junior docs are on rotation, so they are in a particular department for a limited length of time (6 months?).

I do wonder to what extent the general attitude towards Upton was that everyone needed to keep their head down and wait for him to go, given that he wouldn't be there that long and if what we saw of him was any indication of how he behaves in everyday life, looking for trouble.

SP was having none of it and so the decision was made to just keep her out of the way for a bit until Upton left b/c it was easier than dealing with Upton himself, who, as we've seen, just escalates and tantrums until he gets his own way.

FWIW, I know quite a few posters (myself included) have experienced coercive control and abuse and we can spot it a mile off, but not everyone can, and a lot of people deal with a narcissist by just going along with whatever they want.

I had also been advised that there might be some patient safety concerns, that SP had left a cubicle during an incident.
J - please slow down

The danger to patient bit was slipped in sneakily, wasn't it? the judge's comment suggest she spoke it too quickly.

Hang on, have I got this right? A 'generic type' email headed 'catch up' went out at 00.48 on Christmas Day to ED, KS and maybe others saying DU had had an upsetting encounter with another member of staff.

At 00.48 it's got to be from EP hasn't it? Who DU was in floods of tears with in the wellbeing room. Did we know about this email?

and bullying and to interfere with patient care and patient safety. Also I didn't want to put SP into the position where there would be a further incident.

JR - in what way might SP have been breaching her code

ED - code says we can't put our beliefs on other people, and

That's the impact of totalitarianism. It freezes everyone in fear.

My latest hypothesis - easy to imagine why the HR person went off sick. Imagine you have GC views or a conscience and this crosses your desk. No way you want to be the person making a call on something that even the NHS and the GMC have ducked

ED seems confused about whether the issue is patient safety or harassment.

Will NC ask her about her training on these issues?

And something came up earlier, less about him, but more about a patient. If a man identifying as a woman was in the hospital and this doctor kept referring to him as she, it absolutely would impact that patient if everyone thought they were a female

ED hanging herself.

DU certainly believes he can impose HIS beliefs on others.

can't harass.

JR - you mention patient safety

ED - at that point I had been told that there was an occasion on which SP had exited a cubicle and not taken obs, I was told by LS, I had seen nothing in writing

JR - how did you tell SP

ED - I phoned her, she said she was close by

Bringing up the irrelevant Trump stuff and Sandie's husband's Facebook posts previously is making it look like they really disliked Sandie and wanted a way to get rid.

ED - code says we can't put our beliefs on other people,

And DU?

ED - code says we can't put our beliefs on other people, and

But thats exactly what DU did to Sandie and the rest of the women.

and she would come in.

JR - what did you say

ED - said I wanted to have a convo about the incident

JR - what did you say exactly

ED - I don't remember exactly its so long ago

JR - when did you meet

ED - it was fast, within an hour

JR - where

Everything seems to hinge nowadays on whether you are in the right tribe.

Is she suggesting that women who are not Trump supportive are happy to strip off in front of male colleagues?

JR - now about IX interview; 'she's a gentle caring person' anything else you'd like to tell the tribunal at this point about your thought process
ED - Beth had been working in the dept, we knew Beth, I didn't communicate to anyone on the staff, I didn't think
hat there was any need to do any further communication about sexual orientation or identity. The staff had accepted Beth as a woman, no need to say anything further
JR - and why was that
ED - I didn't think there was any need and I didn't want Beth to feel unwelcome in the department

Dammit, my blood pressure had just started to come down from yesterday!!!!

He is lying by sophistry, equating psychology with biology. This is not actually wrong, just very misleading to ordinary people who know what they mean by 'biological'. He is perfectly aware of anatomy and physiology.

So, yes, he is lying, but thinks he has a rationale which makes it not a lie.