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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #15

1000 replies

nauticant · 12/02/2025 15:50

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although once it was in to the second week it was looking like this would not happen. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently, as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14

OP posts:
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38
Bannedontherun · 12/02/2025 17:04

@Mollyollydolly And the point is he did not attend to the patient safety allegations at all until much much later.

INeedAPensieve · 12/02/2025 17:05

Wow a new thread again! Christ I have four now to catch up on tonight.

Thank you @nauticant what stellar work you're doing keeping this all together btw.

Have donated now to both sandie and her dad's memory pages. Hope that's comforting for her and the family.

KnottyAuty · 12/02/2025 17:06

INeedAPensieve · 12/02/2025 17:05

Wow a new thread again! Christ I have four now to catch up on tonight.

Thank you @nauticant what stellar work you're doing keeping this all together btw.

Have donated now to both sandie and her dad's memory pages. Hope that's comforting for her and the family.

It's nearly £10k - has anyone checked if this money will actually get to her?
Sorry if this has already been covered?

RedToothBrush · 12/02/2025 17:07

From earlier

JR: You refer just here to a concern you had, what was that?
DU: That she would rally colleagues to her cause, that untrue allegations would be made about me
JR: [reads] concern she would oust you from dept?
DU: that she would use my refusal to agree with her harassment as a challenge, to organise moves to get me moved from that ward, the department.

Let us reflect on this tiny exchange as its really quite the reveal, isn't it now?

Upton didn't want ANY woman organising and collectively stating that the presence of a males in the women's changing room was appropriate and they felt harassed and intimitated by it. Sandie just happened to be the one not having any of it, on this particular occasion. And that just wouldn't wash for Dr Upton. He wanted to ensure she was unable to ask too many inconvient questions or check on how other women were also feeling. It was preemptive and preventive. Some might call this 'controlling'.

Instead Upton wants now, to frame women objecting as propagating 'untrue allegations' rather than simply having a problem with feeling like this was potentially vouyerism and an infringment on their privacy and dignity. Because Upton isn't the same sex and one woman wanted same sex facilities to prevent, errrrr any potential for there to be any vouyerism or infringements on her privacy and dignity.

He sought to isolate Sandy from being able to speak to colleagues about how this made her feel vulnerable and instead sort to frame her speaking with other females as 'harassment'. Isolating someone, is hmm, somewhat 'controlling'.

Remember this theorectically includes preventing Sandie being able to talk to, say you or me - we are all women who might agree with Sandie and might wish to talk to about how this makes US feel. God forbid, one woman might agree with her and this might form a consensus amongst other women. Women talking about their own feelings must be verboten. This is about shutting up ALL women who have a concept of feeling uncomfortable and have the sheer audicity to want privacy and dignity at this point.

So yeah, I wanted to point out, how obviously spectatularly well this intention to preemptively stop Sandie from talking to other women is working out for Upton at this stage in preceedings.

We are now what, well over 14,000 posts on MN on this plan, as well as huge amount on other parts of social media and numerous articles in the national press?

Not only this, but Upton has successfully and clearly managed to demonstrate, in the space of those two sentences alone ((never mind all the other comments Upton's made). :

1 Women saying no to men is a hate crime.

2 Women speaking for themselves are exclusionary and selfish.

3 Men are whatever men say they are and women are whatever men say they are.

4 Men always know the “real reasons” for everything women do and say.

  1. Women have all the rights they need: The right to remain silent.

  2. Men are the default human. Women are strange subhuman others.

  3. Everyone owns and controls women’s bodies except the women themselves.

I must applaud the work of Dr Upton in showing the absoluetely incredible power of the Streisand Effect in its full glory and being able to condense those complex sentiments into such a concise format. It really is quite the achievement. Dr Upton's control and command of the English language is quite the spectacle to behold.

Bravo to all and every woman, who keeps finding her own voice and daring to talk to others and centring women's feelings rather than just pandering to those of males and suppressing our own concerns.

How very dare we.

Keep talking: Dr Upton doesn't like women organising and talking amongst themselves.

Boiledbeetle · 12/02/2025 17:07

KnottyAuty · 12/02/2025 17:06

It's nearly £10k - has anyone checked if this money will actually get to her?
Sorry if this has already been covered?

with regards the Sandie ones: They are both legit.

myplace · 12/02/2025 17:07

Apologies for placemark as I desperately scrabble around to work out what’s going on! Honestly, work does get in the way!

Bannedontherun · 12/02/2025 17:08

Minor observation the judge forgot to dismiss DU from the witness chair he was left hanging JR said can you dismiss, judge said haven’t i ?

it was for me oh sorry mr nobody you can go now

Like a sub conscience slight to his self importance lol

Rightsraptor · 12/02/2025 17:10

Anyone can indeed report any doctor to the GMC: I reported our old friend Adrian Harrop - remember him? He was much given to spreading anti-women bigotry over Twitter. The only difficulty was choosing the category (it was an online form I completed) because it does tend to assume the complaint is of a clinical nature.

lifeturnsonadime · 12/02/2025 17:11

RedToothBrush · 12/02/2025 17:07

From earlier

JR: You refer just here to a concern you had, what was that?
DU: That she would rally colleagues to her cause, that untrue allegations would be made about me
JR: [reads] concern she would oust you from dept?
DU: that she would use my refusal to agree with her harassment as a challenge, to organise moves to get me moved from that ward, the department.

Let us reflect on this tiny exchange as its really quite the reveal, isn't it now?

Upton didn't want ANY woman organising and collectively stating that the presence of a males in the women's changing room was appropriate and they felt harassed and intimitated by it. Sandie just happened to be the one not having any of it, on this particular occasion. And that just wouldn't wash for Dr Upton. He wanted to ensure she was unable to ask too many inconvient questions or check on how other women were also feeling. It was preemptive and preventive. Some might call this 'controlling'.

Instead Upton wants now, to frame women objecting as propagating 'untrue allegations' rather than simply having a problem with feeling like this was potentially vouyerism and an infringment on their privacy and dignity. Because Upton isn't the same sex and one woman wanted same sex facilities to prevent, errrrr any potential for there to be any vouyerism or infringements on her privacy and dignity.

He sought to isolate Sandy from being able to speak to colleagues about how this made her feel vulnerable and instead sort to frame her speaking with other females as 'harassment'. Isolating someone, is hmm, somewhat 'controlling'.

Remember this theorectically includes preventing Sandie being able to talk to, say you or me - we are all women who might agree with Sandie and might wish to talk to about how this makes US feel. God forbid, one woman might agree with her and this might form a consensus amongst other women. Women talking about their own feelings must be verboten. This is about shutting up ALL women who have a concept of feeling uncomfortable and have the sheer audicity to want privacy and dignity at this point.

So yeah, I wanted to point out, how obviously spectatularly well this intention to preemptively stop Sandie from talking to other women is working out for Upton at this stage in preceedings.

We are now what, well over 14,000 posts on MN on this plan, as well as huge amount on other parts of social media and numerous articles in the national press?

Not only this, but Upton has successfully and clearly managed to demonstrate, in the space of those two sentences alone ((never mind all the other comments Upton's made). :

1 Women saying no to men is a hate crime.

2 Women speaking for themselves are exclusionary and selfish.

3 Men are whatever men say they are and women are whatever men say they are.

4 Men always know the “real reasons” for everything women do and say.

  1. Women have all the rights they need: The right to remain silent.

  2. Men are the default human. Women are strange subhuman others.

  3. Everyone owns and controls women’s bodies except the women themselves.

I must applaud the work of Dr Upton in showing the absoluetely incredible power of the Streisand Effect in its full glory and being able to condense those complex sentiments into such a concise format. It really is quite the achievement. Dr Upton's control and command of the English language is quite the spectacle to behold.

Bravo to all and every woman, who keeps finding her own voice and daring to talk to others and centring women's feelings rather than just pandering to those of males and suppressing our own concerns.

How very dare we.

Keep talking: Dr Upton doesn't like women organising and talking amongst themselves.

Edited

I totally agree with this analysis and I thought it was strange that JR went into this line of questioning because NC had already put it to him that he would need to get her out for 'breaking the spell' in her XX yesterday. I may be paraphrasing with the phrase breaking the spell but it was something along those lines.

Basically any non compliant woman must be removed it is essential to the immersive role play that he is forcing women to go along with.

Bannedontherun · 12/02/2025 17:11

@RedToothBrush And the best bit he has never said that anywhere before.

DAVRO

besides which he was due to move off AnE rotation.

KnottyAuty · 12/02/2025 17:13

Bannedontherun · 12/02/2025 17:08

Minor observation the judge forgot to dismiss DU from the witness chair he was left hanging JR said can you dismiss, judge said haven’t i ?

it was for me oh sorry mr nobody you can go now

Like a sub conscience slight to his self importance lol

The J did let him go and advised he could stay to observe. DU didn't move. JR then asked to release after - not sure if she hadn't heard or didn't want to be seen to taking over J's duties in advising DU to get down

Bannedontherun · 12/02/2025 17:13

Sorry cannot hello chattering, i love that he is in fact a dependent - who would pay any award against him?

ickky · 12/02/2025 17:13

Bannedontherun · 12/02/2025 17:08

Minor observation the judge forgot to dismiss DU from the witness chair he was left hanging JR said can you dismiss, judge said haven’t i ?

it was for me oh sorry mr nobody you can go now

Like a sub conscience slight to his self importance lol

The Judge did dismiss DU - JR was wrong.
In this bit from TT

DU: Have been treated horribly, this tribunal has been harassment. Not just for me but for all trans people in the country, just trying to be themselves.

J: Thank you doctor, evidence concluded. You can stay or not as you wish for the rest of the proceedigns.

J: Suggest we start at 10 tomorrow. Who is witness?

JR: Esther Davidson.

NC: Will need to ask ED about all the new material, but also about material we will ask for searches of -

J You haven't asked for, let along got order?

Bannedontherun · 12/02/2025 17:14

So he sat there anyway what a twat

Cerah · 12/02/2025 17:15

I've been following this case and this whole thing is bonkers. A woman tells a man he shouldn't be using the women's changing rooms and she is the one who is suspended.

Idgaf if she asked him about his chromosomes. She was absolutely right to tell him he shouldn't be in there. While I know how we have got into this situation, I still can't believe we are here. This poor woman has to publicly detail previous trauma and her menstrual cycle to defend saying what she had every right to say, while this man sat there smugly saying he's a biological female and played the victim.

I've always thought this stuff was rubbish since uni. Unfortunately not a lot of my friends agree and have shut me down whenever I've mentioned it. I might have to continue lurking on Mumsnet a to feel sane.

ickky · 12/02/2025 17:16

I expect he was waiting for the swarms of weeping and wailing haidmaidens to comfort him in his plight.

fanOfBen · 12/02/2025 17:16

Does anyone have a link to a good summary of the Gillian Philip case(s), specifically to a summary of whichever part of the process it was that involved this judge? I keep seeing the one tweet, but I don't remember much about the case.

FannyCann · 12/02/2025 17:17

Bannedontherun · 12/02/2025 17:13

Sorry cannot hello chattering, i love that he is in fact a dependent - who would pay any award against him?

Who is he dependent on? Is he not working currently?

fanOfBen · 12/02/2025 17:18

Cerah · 12/02/2025 17:15

I've been following this case and this whole thing is bonkers. A woman tells a man he shouldn't be using the women's changing rooms and she is the one who is suspended.

Idgaf if she asked him about his chromosomes. She was absolutely right to tell him he shouldn't be in there. While I know how we have got into this situation, I still can't believe we are here. This poor woman has to publicly detail previous trauma and her menstrual cycle to defend saying what she had every right to say, while this man sat there smugly saying he's a biological female and played the victim.

I've always thought this stuff was rubbish since uni. Unfortunately not a lot of my friends agree and have shut me down whenever I've mentioned it. I might have to continue lurking on Mumsnet a to feel sane.

Edited

You are welcome here Cerah - many of us have been through this "can this really be what is going on? and, why do the people I know not see it the same way?" process. Disorienting, isn't it? You just have to do your own thinking and then trust the results.

Rightsraptor · 12/02/2025 17:19

Did Jane not tell her client to expect to be skewered by the opposing barrister, to have his words twisted (as he would see it), to be questioned in such details that he would doubt himself? I was told that when I was preparing to go to court (it didn't happen).

Maybe Upton assumed he'd sit there, be given an easy ride and dominate proceedings himself. Now why would I think that?

ZeldaFighter · 12/02/2025 17:20

fanOfBen · 12/02/2025 16:24

What we really need is a friendly journalist with a big house where they could host a watch party.

I mean, JKR is probably watching, I'm sure I could spare a few days to visit the Queen 😉

GCITC · 12/02/2025 17:20

Just read all of today's TT's.

Can't believe there's still outstanding documents.

Bannedontherun · 12/02/2025 17:20

I meant defendant

KnottyAuty · 12/02/2025 17:21

lifeturnsonadime · 12/02/2025 17:11

I totally agree with this analysis and I thought it was strange that JR went into this line of questioning because NC had already put it to him that he would need to get her out for 'breaking the spell' in her XX yesterday. I may be paraphrasing with the phrase breaking the spell but it was something along those lines.

Basically any non compliant woman must be removed it is essential to the immersive role play that he is forcing women to go along with.

I wasn't sure what JR wanted out of this either - maybe reminding us why DU was afraid "professionally" because the other stuff doesn't make a lot of sense.

But this exchange had a different effect on me - it highlighted why he would want to get in with a pre-emptive strike. We will see in the closing arguments I suppose.

I can see why DU is joint respondent - having been so vexatious himself.

I'd love to know more about his previous placements. DU says there were no problems... do we believe given how truth is so nebulous? I wondered if those past experiences were why CCs were taken - because otherwise who takes notes like that? Well I suppose NC showed why someone would and it wasn't a good look.

Also if DU was only fully out at work as a trans woman from 2022, then how were there multiple hospitals listed? Did the women previously thwart their plans? Why was DU so afraid - unless other women had rejected use of CRs?

GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · 12/02/2025 17:23

"DU: That she would rally colleagues to her cause, that untrue allegations would be made about me"

This is DARVO in plain sight. He's describing his own actions - rallying colleagues/union to his cause, allegedly making untrue allegations about SP - career ending allegations. The email KS sent out is the 'smoking gun' on that. He ramped up the hysteria to a level that set KS's 'ally credentials' off & she took that up with gusto, to the point NC is stating caused detriment to SP. KS has gotten herself pulled into this as another respondent as a result.

This is what all the 'bystander' training is about. It's no longer acceptable to just nod & make sympathetic noises when faced with the likes of Upton. If you don't show willing to get involved (inappropriately in KS's case by the sound of it), the risk of being pulled in as somehow complicit in causing further upset/distress is present.

This is all absolutely madness. And no doubt reinforced within the trust by a highly paid DEI 'specialist' pulling strings in the background.

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