NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #15

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although once it was in to the second week it was looking like this would not happen. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently, as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14

That is a lie, they would have put DU on special leave as he was the supposed victim. They didn't care about Sandies feelings.

They are hoping that the panel have TDS and will judge Sandie to be fascist adjacent because she stayed in Trump Towers when on holiday.

ED - I had no access to HR advice and I didn't want to upset SP or expose her to any further incidents
JR - why was that
ED - clearly it was an upsetting situation

What a non-answer. Why do you THINK it is upsetting

for both SP and Beth. Our code of conduct says 'don't impose views on others' and I wanted to shield her.

JR - what happened next

ED - I made a Teams call on 3 Jan, to get HR support and got access to a senior HR officer, I couldn't get to our designated HR officer, I spoke with

They cared not one single shiny shit about Sandie.

ED trying to cover her back by implying neutrality towards each party.

NHS Fife is totally toxic.

It's not surprising they've seemingly killed patients through substandard care (thoughts to Cocoa who on the other thread described some very distressing circumstances whilst a family member was in their "care") when they're so busy being ideologically pure.

Do they have a questionnaire for patients to see if they're ideologically pure enough to be treated?

Whether or not someone likes Trump is completely irrelevant and should not be allowed by the Judge.

Jackie Hurtly (JH). I was looking for a next step, how to manage the situation, I was told there was to be an IX we had only heard Beth's version, not SPs. In my career, I've never had to be involved in any HR I/X so that's why I sought advice.

JR - who told you there needed

ED Our code of conduct says 'don't impose views on others' and I wanted to shield her.

@StellaAndCrow we need a Fucksake emoji for our reactions and to be able to press several times, for posts like those reddit deletions. FFS 😡😡

She's clearly not neutral as she's totally unnecessarily brought up that Sandie likes Trump. Clear attempt to smear her.

Well, Trump's clearly got the moral high ground over NHS Fife on women's rights, difficult though that might be to believe.

to be an IX

ED - Gillian Malone, I was advised that there needed to be a formal IX. My service manager, Angie Shepherd was also involved in that.

JR - how was she involved

ED - it was going to impact our staffing

JR - I meant by what method, what form

But this clearly is only applied to that subset of women called cis and who are gender critical

Jeez. I slept in an old cow shed once.
What would she think of me?

Well ED is certainly giving NC lots of material to discuss.

ED - I had a face to face meeting with GM and AS on 3rd Jan.

JR - who's decision was it that there needed to be a formal IX

ED - it was GS,

JR - what happened after that,

ED - I had sought advice on how IX would take place, how to prevent further interaction btwn

Just catching up with this.

I think that JR is losing the plot, she's demonstrating that at least part of the suspension is for 'wrong think'.

From the Times article
This is also a case about politics and the capturing of a political class by fashionable absurdity.

And a PP
Perhaps there are some of these males reconsidering their future behaviour in these past few days.

Now that at least dawn, if not sunlight, has begun to illuminate how TWAW ideology and zealotry has infiltrated the public sector, I feel that in ten years time we will see a lot of supposed TWs and their pretty frocks, long hair and clarted on make up have disappeared. To be replaced by ordinary looking (mediocre) middle aged men.

Reddit has been funny over this

A bunch of people were getting comments deleted and their accounts banned on Tuesday evening for saying things like "no I do not agree that Dr Upton passes"; appeals on Wednesday morning were successful, deletions reversed and bans lifted. Then last night, deletions again. It really seems to depend on which Reddit staff are on dealing with blasphemy transphobia reports at the time.

I wonder if it opens up a line of questioning by NC as to whether people’s political views are relevant in a disciplinary case such as this.

But his beliefs needn't affect his technical ability to correctly diagnose and treat physical problem.

Most everyday religious etc. beliefs wouldn't. But if his beliefs are as stated, that a demonstrably male person is biologically female, and that biological sex itself is a nebulous concept that can't really be defined, I'd argue that does interfere with his ability to diagnose, for example how would he know to be aware that the signs of a heart attack often differ between the sexes? To prescribe different doses of medications as indicated by sex, and sometimes different medications altogether? To understand the issues of female to male blood transfusions and when that can be problematic?

If they are not his actual beliefs or understanding of sex (which he will have been thoroughly taught in order to have reached the point of being a doctor) then he's lying under oath.

Beth and Sandy. Was advised we should try and find a solution, but that seemed unlikely. I had also been advised that there might be some patient safety concerns, that SP had left a cubicle during an incident.

J - please slow down

ED - Because of all these facts I had to

God they're paralysed by this bloody ideology, aren't they. Investigations, special leave, running around like fucking headless chickens

I was advised that there needed to be a formal IX. My service manager, Angie Shepherd was also involved in that.

Is this the formal investigation that JR was arguing didn't exist until all the new docs started arriving?

'Our code of conduct says 'don't impose views on others'

Well what about Upton imposing his view of himself onto others - using the changing rooms as a matter of fiat and demanding assent to this afterwards in his convos with supervisors? Acting like judge jury and executioner with his little phone notes where he assumes and ascribes everyones motivations in interactions with him to be down to dislike or transphobia?

They say with a narcissist - every accusation is an admission. Which made yesterdays comments about 'she might organise against me. rally others to her views, demand change to my behaviour or have me controlled ' so revealing