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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #15

1000 replies

nauticant · 12/02/2025 15:50

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although once it was in to the second week it was looking like this would not happen. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently, as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14

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38
Shortshriftandlethal · 13/02/2025 11:00

SP had asked Beth about her chromosomes and compared her to a TW in prison.

This has the definite ring of an untruth about it

ickky · 13/02/2025 11:00

ED - LS had been made aware of the convo SP/DU taken advice, and told to put SP on special leave. The holiday period meant that we didn't have the same people to take advice from, you have someone on call but you don't have your HR manager or your service manager.

littlbrowndog · 13/02/2025 11:00

Shetlands · 13/02/2025 10:57

Why are SP's political views in any way relevant to her rights as a woman to a single sex changing room? Would she have been treated any differently if she'd lauded Biden and criticised Trump? Is that what they're saying?

Yep

Instructions · 13/02/2025 11:00

What's the point to the Trump comments? Are they saying that if a person supports that awful man they lose all rights to dignity and must allow people of the opposite sex to watch them get undressed?

DialSquare · 13/02/2025 11:01

ChowMoWan · 13/02/2025 10:40

Comments have been suspended on Sandie's crowdfunder. Do you think the usual suspects are trying to have it shut down?

It looks like the comments have been suspended on both crowdfunds.

TriesNotToBeCynical · 13/02/2025 11:01

Instructions · 13/02/2025 10:52

But Dr Upton thinks he is a biological female. That seems grounds to question his medical ability sure enough.

Fair, I don't disagree. But his beliefs needn't affect his technical ability to correctly diagnose and treat physical problem.

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 13/02/2025 11:01

ickky · 13/02/2025 11:00

ED - LS had been made aware of the convo SP/DU taken advice, and told to put SP on special leave. The holiday period meant that we didn't have the same people to take advice from, you have someone on call but you don't have your HR manager or your service manager.

And yet special beth managed to get advice.

Pluvia · 13/02/2025 11:01

ED is an ally, clearly. Or she's decided she needs to keep her job and not do anything that will damage her pension or make her last few years of work more complicated than they need be. Easy for her: she referred it upwards and her senior managers said 'He's allowed in the CR' and so she has nothing to lose from doing the 'I was only obeying orders' number. I wonder how much encouragement she's been given to stick the knife into SP: 'stern', 'Trump supporter', 'strong beliefs'?

ickky · 13/02/2025 11:01

JR - so LS had taken advice, how did you know that

ED - she told me on the telephone

JR - when you had convo with SP, who called who

ED - I called her, phoned her to discuss next actions, and I had no access to advice to tell me what to do, I felt the safest thing for SP

Username65 · 13/02/2025 11:02

Shetlands · 13/02/2025 10:57

Why are SP's political views in any way relevant to her rights as a woman to a single sex changing room? Would she have been treated any differently if she'd lauded Biden and criticised Trump? Is that what they're saying?

My take is, Sandie has refused to buckle down and go with affirming BU, that will have caused ED extra work and now she’s having to give evidence in a trial that’s gone viral. So she’s angry with SP and she’s had months to think up justification for why she deserved to be punished.

prh47bridge · 13/02/2025 11:03

ChowMoWan · 13/02/2025 10:54

I abhor trump, but does that mean I'm more entitled to single-sex spaces than someone who loves him? No, it bloody well does not. I'm getting more and more infuriated each day. I think I might have to stop following altogether.

Absolutely. Saying that SP supports Trump and his policies when your only evidence is that she stayed in a Trump hotel is ridiculous. Even if you are right, discriminating against her on that basis is a clear breach of the Equality Act. In most work situations you may not discriminate against someone based on their political beliefs, real or imagined.

JasmineAllen · 13/02/2025 11:03

Shortshriftandlethal · 13/02/2025 10:57

JR - read and tell the tribunal what you made of it

It's like she's coaxing a child.

This is what happens in court. It's performative but designed to make sure everyone knows the important points being raised.

verysmellyjelly · 13/02/2025 11:03

Does anyone know why Sandie's fundraiser isn't displaying comments? Sorry if I've missed this.

ickky · 13/02/2025 11:03

was to leave her on special leave. And I would get back to as soon as I had been able to get HR advice. Special leave has no financial consequences, you get paid but don't come to work. SP sounded annoyed and it was okay to get paid not to come to work

AMillionMugsNoTeabags · 13/02/2025 11:03

Next time anyone tells me how short the NHS is of nurses, I will point out that SP was suspended for - at most - once getting stroppy with a colleague.

NotAGentleReminder · 13/02/2025 11:03

@Szygy The glibness and facility in the way Upton reels off his schtick speaks of hours and hours (days? Weeks? Months?) of being affirmed by those around him, imho.

His schtick is a script I suspect he has learned from other trans-identifying people (speculation on my part). I have watched trans-identifying influencers and there appear to be common phrases and mannerisms. We talk about 'the TRA bingo card' of these phrases because they've all been brainwashed into reeling off the same nonsense. I would not be surprised if he spent a lot of time during lockdown watching this nonsense (again, speculation). We are allowed to say the 'cult' word on here now, aren't we? I'm glad, because I think that is an appropriate description. Online TRAs describe the realisation that one 'is trans' as one's 'egg cracking'. It's almost as if one has been born again, like a religious conversion. The performance of the new persona must be maintained at all costs and mantras repeated if it is challenged in any way. I do see it as akin to an addiction or obsessive disorder and people who previously might have been pleasant and reasonable can behave in controlling and abusive ways while in the grip of these disorders. Affirming and enabling these behaviours is the worst thing that can be done for the person and everyone else. Unfortunately because of the mess of the law and the ideological capture of medicine and other institutions, there is pressure on us all to go along with this nonsense and most people do not understand how damaging it is to affirm. But everyone who has affirmed Dr Upton has contributed towards fuelling a disordered man's selfish addiction. I really do hope he snaps out of it one day and is able to cope and make amends for the consequences of his actions but all the enabling thus far will have made it incredibly difficult to row back from this. What was needed was for this to be nipped in the bud, his supervisor to say, no, you cannot use the women's changing rooms, without any need to justify and explain, and for his crying and shaking to be met with strong encouragement to take some time off and access psychological support (the problem being that those services are captured too; they need not to be, asap).

Datun · 13/02/2025 11:04

TriesNotToBeCynical · 13/02/2025 11:01

Fair, I don't disagree. But his beliefs needn't affect his technical ability to correctly diagnose and treat physical problem.

He's been completely unable, under oath, to conduct a conversation acknowledging reality.

We hope it doesn't permeate everything, but you'd think a legal tribunal, with his job in the balance,would be a bit of a litmus test

Shortshriftandlethal · 13/02/2025 11:04

ED - I called her, phoned her to discuss next actions, and I had no access to advice to tell me what to do, I felt the safest thing for SP

Trying to make out she's also concered about SP's safety

ickky · 13/02/2025 11:04

JR - who made the decision to put her on special leave

ED - LS

JR - you extended SP's special leave why was that

ED - I had no access to HR advice and I didn't want to upset SP or expose her to any further incidents

JR - why was that

ED - clearly it was an upsetting situation

KohlaParasaurus · 13/02/2025 11:04

yourhairiswinterfire · 13/02/2025 10:59

Yes, I'd love to see the policy or law that states women with the 'wrong' political opinions should be forced to take their clothes off in front of men Hmm

Agree. Or the "wrong" demeanour when doing their job.

I'm quite cross about this, and at the same time hoping that ED leaking her personal animosity towards SP will be a rich seam for NC to mine in cross examination.

TriesNotToBeCynical · 13/02/2025 11:05

AMillionMugsNoTeabags · 13/02/2025 11:03

Next time anyone tells me how short the NHS is of nurses, I will point out that SP was suspended for - at most - once getting stroppy with a colleague.

My understanding of special leave is that you don't get unsocial hours etc. pay enhancements, but that may be different in Scotland.

Shortshriftandlethal · 13/02/2025 11:05

Trying to make out SP was happy to have paid 'special leave'.

Didactylos · 13/02/2025 11:05

What about the unpleasant incident for Sandie - having to go into a changing room to deal with an unexpected personal issue at work and being faced with a gaslighting male who was willing to stay and argue the toss about his identity and self assumed rights over the space rather than having any empathy for her position and need for dignity and privacy. Did ED ever ask for her side of the incident or did they all just swallow the information fed to them by Upton?

Scout2016 · 13/02/2025 11:05

They've glossed over the part where Sandie said she'd ask him not to use the CR and ED didn't say "No don't". That chat was with ED wasn't it?

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