NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #15

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although once it was in to the second week it was looking like this would not happen. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently, as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14

So Sandie asks end of Aug and heard nothing back until beginning of October! Fucking hell.

My take on the narcissism element.

The narcissism is a deep part of the personality structure and beneath the trans stuff he’s currently channelling it through. It was always there.

I agree that the moment he feared that SP would rally others round to her view is key. His narcissism would prevent him from feeling able to SURVIVE being denied access to the CR. A feeling of overwhelm and powerlessness so all-consuming that he actually cannot imagine living through it.

It was life or death, to him. If he was denied access, he couldn’t come to work and face (and walk through) the humiliation of having lost. (He is not capable of imagining how having done the same to SP might feel.)

In the same way, he is demanding an apology from SP. If he is asked to apologise to HER, he feels he will not be able to survive that. He will not be able to do it, due to not being able to tolerate the overwhelming feeling of perceived shame. He will feel unimaginable terror at the idea of it. Life or death, to him.

Sympathies, I suffer from that too.

change in the toilets.

JR - was there any official communication from Fife about the policy for trans people

ED - no there wasn't

JR - why was there nothing from Fife management

ED - I don't know, it would have been nice if MC had had that communication that we would have been

SP always appears quite stern.....ouch, she doesn't seem to like Sandie very much does she?

Do we know what the KS 'All staff email' relates to?

Yes. I work with women with significant learning disabilities, who we know are more likely than the general population to have experienced trauma and abuse.

I've seen the effect that just being in a room with a male optician had one one of the women.

Some would able to ask for a female clinician. The idea of then being confronted not just by a man, but a man who says he's a woman - I just find the prospect horrifying and it makes me cry.

And it's not just the effect on women. I knew an older male with a severe learning disability who lived in supported living, 24 hour care. He started behaving oddly and presenting as much more anxious. We asked about any changes in his life - we were told there were none.

It was only when I met the staff team that I saw that one of his staff team (Richard, 50 year old man) now was calling himself Rachel and had long hair, make up and apparent breasts. And of course none of the team could mention that to the clinicians. How is a patient with a severe learning disability supposed to process that weirdness? Especially when no one is talking about it. Just a horrendous situation for him.

told about it.

JR - now about IX interview; 'she's a gentle caring person' anything else you'd like to tell the tribunal at this point about your thought process

ED - Beth had been working in the dept, we knew Beth, I didn't communicate to anyone on the staff, I didn't think

@Swashbuckled hit the nail on the head there

Also, there often won't be a big pay discrepancy between a juniorish doctor and an experienced nurse. DU was actually correct in saying the difference is about roles, but that there is overlap.

that there was any need to do any further communication about sexual orientation or identity. The staff had accepted Beth as a woman, no need to say anything further

JR - and why was that

ED - I didn't think there was any need and I didn't want Beth to feel unwelcome in the

The stern bigoted terf versus the gentle caring lamb of a transwoman.

Sorry - emails to the Minister should be at [email protected]

that there was any need to do any further communication about sexual orientation or identity.

Again we see the forced teaming of sexual orientation and gender identity, as though they are the same thing...

department.

JR - what was your awareness of what C believed

ED - I was aware that C was uncomfortable

JR - were you aware of her GC beliefs

NC - I'm sorry, I've let a number of leading questions go....

J - it was a leading question

JR - I will simply ask

Maybe just saying SP tells it like it is, a direct speaker, not a waffler. Unlike some...🙄

Innit! Special place in hell for the likes of Esther

there wasn't one time I thought DU was gentle and caring this week -
and - The staff had accepted Beth as a woman -
how does she know?!?!

it again

JR - what did you know about Sandies' belief

ED - she has strong beliefs, she is a fan of Donald Trumps and his policies, she lets you know

JR - how did you know

ED - just through convo, she was on holiday and told us she stayed in the Trump Hotel.

The staff had accepted Beth as a woman, no need to say anything further

Not a biological female though

Stern is an interesting word to use. I'm guessing that straightforward and no nonsense are probably more accurate but don't sound 'mean' enough.

The right to be forgotten is not an absolute right. It only applies in certain circumstances. News outlets, search engines and others can refuse to comply on the basis that they are exercising the right to freedom of expression and information. They can also refuse on the basis that it is in the public interest for the information to remain. It is obviously up to each search engine, website, etc. how to respond if DU did try to exercise the right to be forgotten, but my assessment of his chances of getting a clean sweep would include the words "snowball" and "hell".

What a bitch! ED does NOT like Sandie

From the photos Sandie looks like a warm friendly person who probably has a great sense of humour as well as being kind and empathetic when needed. She has a lovely smile that goes right up to the eyes. She will have seen a lot over 30 years in ED.

I’m assuming it was made very clear on pain of reeducation and/or suspension that you will accept Beth is a woman