NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #14

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although once it was in to the second week it was looking like this would not happen. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently, as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13

How on earth could this fool have been able to graduate past education level if sex is nebulous. Failure of an entire system here.

Just a quick wow this is shooting up!

He's in full on TRA browbeating mode. I've experienced this. Have painfully learned to no longer engage or try to reason with it.

Just catching up. So apologies if this is out of order.

The whole - 'she cornered me on my own the CR to abuse me' doesn't really work. SPmay have chosen to speak to DU when he was on his own to try save his further embarrassment in front of others?

Option 1 - do nothing, not acceptable
Option 2 - talk to DU when he is on his own
Option 3 - talk to him when others are present

I am sure that DU would have found both options 2 and 3 unacceptable but appears to be suggesting 3 would be better? Sort of a no win situation.

Is he expecting support from the other women that he has bullied in their own changing room?

P: So scrubs then go to CR

DU: Yes and typically via fridge to drop off lunch, and sometimes handover room depending on shift.

P: And afterwards?

DU: Big laundry bag outside CR to drop scrubs in

Hang on - DU was using NHS changing rooms before they "came out" officially in 2022? DU was a Registrar at Fife - where was he before? someone ask!

Well written summary of yesterday’s proceedings

forwomen.scot/12/02/2025/the-problem-with-pete/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR2dueN7h6VHhYk0NtbNxpXFzgoHaFn4_MHghcrC-FRzY0HAVlyfAYpd4z8_aem_qHk8Rcco7n8D8Dyl9LKb9Q

Did so yesterday I'm in fife and my family run the risk of being seen by this "dr"

P [A Q]

DU: Yes when I panicked and left CR I grabbed bag but forgot scrubs and had to get more.
P [A Q]

DU: Yes the nurses and doctor scrubs are kept separately [I think this is what is said but sound not great]

It would be interesting to note how Dr U responds to the panel; does he reply to the female differently?

I bet he does.

I notice how he's not fucking around with the waffling when he's responding to the panel!

J: First time you discussed with anyone about use of CRs was with KS, about 2 weeks in?

DU: Yes I think so - discussed re trans in psych induction, but I think not CRs or toilets.

Yes, and how much do we want to bet that the female staff there, wherever it was, weren't happy about it either? Just because no one complains doesn't mean there isn't opposition.

What magic spell was said in the 24 hours between using male changing rooms and female ones? How do you know the spell has been cast?

ask it Judge, ask it....

J: So a couple of weeks in, with KS - any discussion of EDI?

DU: Don't think so - KS said not aware of any policy, that there may not be one.

J: You mentioned a Sarah Richardson, her role?

DU: {missed} -

J Q?

DU: She has rotated out.

Was he a woman when using male changing rooms before 2022?

@Datun - "He already just said there's no way she could've expressed it that would satisfy him. And that she had to use the language of an ideology she is protected by law from disagreeing with..."

Yes he has said that, but that will be irrelevent if the tribunal decide that SP's confrontation with him was not an acceptable way of expressing her beliefs.

(Again I'm not saying that is my view of the confrontation but it might be a problem for SP )

Waves wand "I am a woman"

Drops wand as now too heavy in womanly hands

So spell must have worked.

J We have heard a Rhianna mentioned, do you know surname?

DU: Not sure [has a guess]

J Her role?

DU: I think healthcare assistant.

J: Still in role?

DU Not sure, might be maternitiy leave

@Boiledbeetle picks up other wand. Rubs it. A lot. Gets taken to Malaga.

J: Q re another person?

DU: Not sure how to spell the name, would have to look up, don't think she's still at the hospital.

J: A Fiona mentioned?

DU: Yes, think she's still at the hospital

DU's told NHS Fife of his trans status - said was unwilling but had to for protection - before arrival at The Vic. DU does an induction - if NHS Fife know they have a trans employee coming and they operate a case-by-case basis then when did that assessment happen? Not before. Not on the induction. Not by KS - so when? And where is the policy/process doc to show how it is done?

I think the panel member may have helped prove that NHS don't use case by case at all:

Case: Harassment under EA as in 2a for letting Dr U use the female CR and permitting other staff to use a CR that aligns with their gender identity

Denied: The NHS/Dr U team have responded to accept that the events listed in the claim happened but the don’t accept the claims of harassment and say that they only allow staff to use CRs based on their gender identity on a case-by-case basis (ie my words: not just any old Tom Dick or Harry can march into the ladies)

😁

If he's "not a man" shouldn't the judge throw the case out right now?
Because there WOULD be no discrimination if he was a woman no?

So the very fact that the case is being heard is because he is a transwoman. Transwomen are men, otherwise WHAT are they "transing" from?

Make it make sense.