NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #14

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although once it was in to the second week it was looking like this would not happen. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently, as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13

[Q is re where was DU in CR]

DU: The photo is not of my bag, I meant that where that bag is, is where I was standing. I was at sink - you see there are two, I had washed hands at further one, dried hands there

DU: C was standing sort of at the end, had to walk round her and ended c where bag is.

JR will keep it very tight now. NC has lit a fuse and DU may go off .

CocoapuffPuff I am so sorry

P: [sound v poor]

DU: I knew nothing re photos until I saw bundle.

P: I think you referred to a manager, supervisor, and an educational officer?

DU: Can't recall if she is clinical supervisor or not - not my line manager.

Yes, but...

I my be wrong but my understanding is that SP's rights to hold those opinions and to express them "reasonably" is protected by law.

But expressing those opinions "unreasonably" may not be protected.

I think Dr U and fife will be arguing the way SP expressed her opinion amounted to harassment.

(I don't agree that it was - but I think that's the argument)

Oh my days......I need a very large G&T after that last series of exchanges.

IIRC it was when NC pointed out that DU was trying to control her.

DU: KS role is to keep eye on my welfare but also to make sure I am keeping educational requirements up to date. A point of contact to help me but also keep me moving forward on medical education.

He already just said there's no way she could've expressed it that would satisfy him. And that she had to use the language of an ideology she is protected by law from disagreeing with.

I agree though, he will use the TRA line, it's not what you believe, it's the way you express it.

P: So your line manager?

DU: Don't think I've ever had contact. In ER the manager is the senior doctor there at any given time - different from other areas.

This is the crux of it all.

I wouldn’t be surprised if there wasn’t performative weeping outside court for the journos. On the one hand I’m sure he’d like to paint NC as bullying him in the box. On the other, he wont want her to win - control matters!

DU: KS role is to keep eye on my welfare but also to make sure I am keeping educational requirements up to date. A point of contact to help me but also keep me moving forward on medical education.

His has his speshul minder who looks after all his safety needs.

P: you said you talked to KS re CR [missed]

DU: correct

DU: Yes, told KS had used female CR at previous workplace and was just checking with KS that was fine for me to do that here.

Doesn't he have one in front of him in the bundle?

JR didnt seem to be following NC's point and said 'oh!' when NC explained that she meant DU was trying to compel NC's speech and control her.

@Sarahbackinthesaddle and @prh47bridge
Really? That was yesterday morning? I thought was a surprised oh - as in oh really? Think there must have been another oh - because after the one I heard she went on to object object object and looked the opposite of deflated

Oh come ON!

you don't believe in sex, mate! How is that for your medical education!

There's so many contradictions in this man's testimony, it's unbelievable.

She's got her work cut out with that one 🙄

P: Was that with Fife NHS, previous jobs?

DU: Worked in Fife, but I think technically was NHSEducation while in training, and then [names hospitals]

'A point of contact to help me but also keep me moving forward on medical education.'

Next lesson: the difference between male and female

I wish I could see the faces of the people in the room. Just reading Upton's words is making me feel like my head is going to explode.

oh yes panel!
i wanted to know where he had used the CR before - and to get confirmation of there being no issues. It might explain the taking of notes early on if thwarted elsewhere?

It must be so difficult having to deal with someone like Upton in your daily life either at work or in private

It would be like a never ending game of pigeon chess.

P: and the incident 28/12, you say went to cupboard for scrubs. Where is the cupboard?

DU: Bit of a labyrinth in A&E. [describes areas, corridor round the top with CRs, other corridors, scrubs cupboard is, you have to go all the way round]