NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #14

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although once it was in to the second week it was looking like this would not happen. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently, as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13

NC: Must have been clear to you that SP found your presence in the CR on 24/12 intimidating and humiliating. DU: No if she was intimidated she wdn't have started the convo, wdn't have waited till only 2 of us.

DU: Disagree. Everyone was accepting of trans ppl, at least until more recently furore blew up.

He's not been "trans" for that long, has he? The debate has been raging in mainstream media since 2017.

NC: Are you saying she is lying about feeling intimidated

DU: Saying she did not act that way. Confrontational, agressive, compared me to rapist, intrusive Qs, harassing me, repeatedly, that is what happened.

Sandie can't win with this man. Whatever she did he'd already decided she was getting made an example of!

approach me please! And get suspended for a hate incident!

NC: Must have been clear to you that SP found your presence in the CR on 24/12 intimidating and humiliating.

DU: No if she was intimidated she wdn't have started the convo, wdn't have waited till only 2 of us.

Ask - ask about whether this could have been so SP could have a discrete word. Wouldn't that be "normal" behaviour? Who would bring something personal up like that with an audience - she didn't want to humliate or embarass DU

DU: She was intending to confront me. NC: Are you saying she was lying about the menstrual flood? DU: No, but she shd have gone into the cubicle straight away not confronted me.

How does he know.....that's just his perception. Sauce for the goose an' all that'

C: A few Qs about why there may not have been more complaints about your use of CR. SP has said others were also unhappy, you said to JR you were not aware of any.
NC: You have said you are an empathetic person. Can you use that skill to say why those people might not have mentioned them?
DU: Pppl could have felt intimated by I'm not aware anyone was, certtainly didn't try to, sad to thinkk they felt could not approach me.
NC: 3 possibilities I think 1. Nobody else had any concerns 2. Some ppl did but didn't want to hurt your feelings. 3. Ppl did have concerns but too frightened to express them.

He's sounding rattled.

Sandie can't win with this man.

As NC has pointed out several times. I hope that lands. He's a bully.

NC: That bullying of her by you was all about you being male and her being female -

JR: Object. Not bullying.

J: This is what the case is about. It is the C's position

JR: I understand. But given response - repetitive Q. But I give way.

J: thank you.

NC: Are you saying she is lying about feeling intimidated DU: Saying she did not act that way. Confrontational, agressive, compared me to rapist, intrusive Qs, harassing me, repeatedly, that is what happened.

NC: That bullying of her by you was all about you being male and her being female.

DU: Is that a Q

NC: Yes - agree or disagree

DU: Disagree. Was in space I had permission to use.

Ah yes the permission you had given yourself!

NC: That bullying of her by you was all about you being male and her being female - JR: Object. Not bullying. J: This is what the case is about. It is the C's position JR: I understand. But given response - repetitive Q. But I give way. J: thank you.

JR on her feet again.

Nice one Judge.

@CocoapuffPuff I'm so sorry you mother had to go through that, and so glad (as pp said) she was not alone, but had you with her, awful as that was for you.

NC: She was protesting against you presence, invasion of privacy

DU: She didn't mention that, talked about safety

NC: You were determined to punish SP for standing up to you

DU Not at all. no interest in punishing anyone.

DU: Have kept saying not interested in punishment, revenge - but in respect and justice.

Just because you could doesn’t mean you should. That underlines all sorts of respectful interaction in society doesn’t it?

DU: Have kept saying not interested in punishment, revenge - but in respect and justice.

Agreed - I think we we have a very good chance of seeing justice

NC: She was protesting against you presence, invasion of privacy DU: She didn't mention that, talked about safety NC: You were determined to punish SP for standing up to you DU Not at all. no interest in punishing anyone.

@CocoaPuff that's a disgrace I'm so very sorry. I'm in England and we had a relative whose stroke was said to be vertigo, no MRI for 4 days, and a bullying male nurse who kept telling my relative he was Harold Shipman. Fortunately corroborated by two honest young care workers who had been in earshot on one occasion.

DU Not at all. no interest in punishing anyone.
DU: Have kept saying not interested in punishment, revenge - but in respect and justice.

No one believes you mate

NC: You could have decided not to put in a complaint. BMA suggests informal resolutions.

DU: I didn't put in formal complaint, I did a Datix.

NC: That is a formal complaint

DU: I didn't know that. Was surprised when it escalated to IX

To be honest, I understand why SP spoke to him when she was left alone with him by the others. Because suddenly, her adrenaline would have kicked in and she's having a "shit, how do I get out of here" moments that we all do when stuck in an isolated or enclosed space (lift, stairwell in car park, underpass) and a male is there.

She spoke to you, dumbass, so that you'd realise she wanted you to get the hell out of there.

Seriously, these blokes have absolutely no clue what women go through on a daily basis, the millions of tiny moment to moment decisions we make based on the twitch of an eyebrow, an instinctual sense of revulsion or a glance to the left and right to see if anyone else is there to see what's about to happen. We see all that and judge all that in milliseconds. Milliseconds.