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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #14

1000 replies

nauticant · 12/02/2025 11:30

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although once it was in to the second week it was looking like this would not happen. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently, as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13

OP posts:
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14
MarieDeGournay · 12/02/2025 13:51

lifeturnsonadime · Today 13:49
It's a win win, isn't it? Either it was false/ didn't happen or if it did happen they didn't handle it properly, treated the alleged 'transphobia' more seriously.

Gaslighting 101. It didn't happen but even if it did it wasn't my fault, whatever it was.

ickky · 12/02/2025 13:52

DU: Yes those sound reasonably likely, but I can't absolutely confirm those are they as it's a while since I did one.

rebmacesrevda · 12/02/2025 13:52

Akela64 · 12/02/2025 13:49

The decision in the case against Upton is critical for sex based protections in the workplace. IMO it's the cornerstone, not the side show. Male employees using a female staff CR would be committing sexual harassment and employers who ignored it would have no defense against claims of discrimination by female employees.

Not sure if a GCR would muddy the waters. Supreme Court will be sorting that one out.

I think a GRC would muddy the waters, and I think Upton is a fool for deciding to kick off at work before he'd got one :)

Cailleach1 · 12/02/2025 13:52

NebulousDog · 12/02/2025 13:25

A qn to lawyer people:

Would Beth be permitted to sit through the witness's evidence after the cross examination or do respondents get turfed off the premises?

The room is pretty small and I imagine "death stares" could become quite intimidating.

If anyone remembers ‘The Wire’, I think the first time McNulty came across Stringer Bell was when Bell was sitting in a courtroom to satisfy himself that a witness to a crime changed their evidence. Best series ever, in my book.

Of course ‘The Wire’ is a work of fiction. It wouldn’t be comparable to any past or future cross looks, death stares or glaring at an Employment Tribunal. Intimidation, or attempts at intimidation wouldn’t be good, no matter how pathetic they would appear. NC wouldn’t be putting up with that sort of carry on, I’d imagine, if it ever did occur and it bothered her in any way.

ickky · 12/02/2025 13:52

NC: All we see on the page we looked at is the name of the person ?to investigate, the brief description, and a link to where s/o can presumably view the full information. We do NOT see all the info that was recorded?

DU: agree

CocoapuffPuff · 12/02/2025 13:52

rebmacesrevda · 12/02/2025 13:41

We all want to return to sanity, but this is much bigger than the NHS.
Please write to your MP, and your MSP if you live in Scotland!

Oh I do. Often. It's pointless. They're not listening. None of the fuckers are listening. They don't want to listen. They just want their fancy cars and fancy houses and fancy holidays and fuck the rest of us. Most of them have told me I'm a transphobic twat (paraphrasing) if they bother to reply. The only one who's ever actually agreed that single sex spaces are important (for both sexes) and that sex is immutable was the Conservative guy, and I believe he went, last election.

I live in Fife, west of Dunfermline, and our local hospital's A & E dept was closed a decade or so ago. Now, you have the joy of having a heart attack whilst waiting 4 hours for an ambulance, a 30 - 40 minute drive to the Vic (if the A92 hasn't been closed by fuckwits in fast cars turning themselves over) and a 3 hour wait outside whilst they try to shift out all the coughing kids who can't get appts at their doctors because GPs here now only do appts via phone and you wait 4 weeks (yes, I said 4 weeks) for a bloody phone call from them.

Sorry, bit of a rant, but nobody is listening. Not to Joe and Joanne Bloggs, anyway.

ArabellaScott · 12/02/2025 13:52

Akela64 · 12/02/2025 13:49

The decision in the case against Upton is critical for sex based protections in the workplace. IMO it's the cornerstone, not the side show. Male employees using a female staff CR would be committing sexual harassment and employers who ignored it would have no defense against claims of discrimination by female employees.

Not sure if a GCR would muddy the waters. Supreme Court will be sorting that one out.

I would like to know that there is no circumstance a male is entitled and protected to use women's services and spaces.

Whether or not he has a certificate.
Whatever he looks like.
However sincere he is.

The loveliest, kindest, nicest, sweetest, most feminine looking man, with all the correct paperwork, and all the surgery possible, remains a man, and should not be in women's spaces.

EasternStandard · 12/02/2025 13:53

CocoapuffPuff · 12/02/2025 13:33

I'm a little bit confused. Are Upton personally, and NHS Fife as an organisation, both facing the same claims from Sandie Peggie? I can't help but feel that, whilst Upton is certainly appearing to be a loathsome fantasist and troublemaker, NHS Fife had the means and opportunity to contain him and slap him back into his place.
NHS Fife allowed him to bully all the women exposed to his fantasy-self. NHS Fife colluded in his abuse of his status as a doctor AND his abuse of the systems that NHS itself has in place, to deliberately target and abuse a fucking massive number of staff. Sandie's the only one who has stood up and refused to cow before the trans god, but there will be many others in the Vic who feared running into him in changing rooms, loos and wards.

NHS Fife ALLOWED the man to rampage round their hospital and cause havoc.

Upton makes my skin crawl, but NHS Fife literally sat back and allowed him to create mayhem amongst their female staff. Jesus. It's so far beyond pure sexism that I cannot think of a word strong enough. WTF has happened to the world???

I agree. They have equal or more culpability

Lark1ane · 12/02/2025 13:53

I want an Eastenders Drumroll button to press after every NC revelation.

ickky · 12/02/2025 13:53

NC: So - more information that we see here

DU: Unless it's somewhere else in the bundle. It's not my role to review Datixes.

NebulousDog · 12/02/2025 13:54

Another disclosure f up? Surely not.

ickky · 12/02/2025 13:55

NC: Going to look at who on board knew what when re 'hate incident'. your i/v with AG - can we take from this that the decision to make formal complaint happened on 29/12 with KS?

DU No not KS

NC: So with ED on 25/12?

DU not decided, but, option was mentioned then.

ArabellaScott · 12/02/2025 13:55

CocoapuffPuff · 12/02/2025 13:52

Oh I do. Often. It's pointless. They're not listening. None of the fuckers are listening. They don't want to listen. They just want their fancy cars and fancy houses and fancy holidays and fuck the rest of us. Most of them have told me I'm a transphobic twat (paraphrasing) if they bother to reply. The only one who's ever actually agreed that single sex spaces are important (for both sexes) and that sex is immutable was the Conservative guy, and I believe he went, last election.

I live in Fife, west of Dunfermline, and our local hospital's A & E dept was closed a decade or so ago. Now, you have the joy of having a heart attack whilst waiting 4 hours for an ambulance, a 30 - 40 minute drive to the Vic (if the A92 hasn't been closed by fuckwits in fast cars turning themselves over) and a 3 hour wait outside whilst they try to shift out all the coughing kids who can't get appts at their doctors because GPs here now only do appts via phone and you wait 4 weeks (yes, I said 4 weeks) for a bloody phone call from them.

Sorry, bit of a rant, but nobody is listening. Not to Joe and Joanne Bloggs, anyway.

Constituents are treated with the utmost contempt by Scottish politicians.

StellaAndCrow · 12/02/2025 13:55

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

CriticalCondition · 12/02/2025 13:56

ickky · 12/02/2025 13:53

NC: So - more information that we see here

DU: Unless it's somewhere else in the bundle. It's not my role to review Datixes.

This smart-arsery cannot be playing well with the judge.

ickky · 12/02/2025 13:56

NC: We start seeing mention of 'prior behaviours' here? {discussion re KS emails establishes this was probably 29/12 and that yes the Datix is first mention of this]

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/02/2025 13:57

If anyone remembers ‘The Wire’, I think the first time McNulty came across Stringer Bell was when Bell was sitting in a courtroom to satisfy himself that a witness to a crime changed their evidence. Best series ever, in my book.

Yes I do!

ickky · 12/02/2025 13:57

NC: Turning to 'formal complaint' - drafted around 3rd Jan, sent to BMA as draft then. This is first mention of refusal to engage re 'missing patient'?

DU: no, contemporaneous mention in my phone notes

WearyAuldWumman · 12/02/2025 13:57

CocoapuffPuff · 12/02/2025 13:52

Oh I do. Often. It's pointless. They're not listening. None of the fuckers are listening. They don't want to listen. They just want their fancy cars and fancy houses and fancy holidays and fuck the rest of us. Most of them have told me I'm a transphobic twat (paraphrasing) if they bother to reply. The only one who's ever actually agreed that single sex spaces are important (for both sexes) and that sex is immutable was the Conservative guy, and I believe he went, last election.

I live in Fife, west of Dunfermline, and our local hospital's A & E dept was closed a decade or so ago. Now, you have the joy of having a heart attack whilst waiting 4 hours for an ambulance, a 30 - 40 minute drive to the Vic (if the A92 hasn't been closed by fuckwits in fast cars turning themselves over) and a 3 hour wait outside whilst they try to shift out all the coughing kids who can't get appts at their doctors because GPs here now only do appts via phone and you wait 4 weeks (yes, I said 4 weeks) for a bloody phone call from them.

Sorry, bit of a rant, but nobody is listening. Not to Joe and Joanne Bloggs, anyway.

Fully agree.

A few years back I was in A&E at the Vic. (I've spent more time there than I would like - was care for my parents and my husband.) QM Minor Injuries had sent a mother and daughter to the Vic - top of her finger had been removed in a school accident.

A&E told the mother that they couldn't deal with it - she needed the hand specialist at QM!

I'm assuming that the bairn lost the tip of her finger in the end, given the time taken. Unreal.

StellaAndCrow · 12/02/2025 13:57

Just bringing this forward for newcomers.

There is now a crowdfunder to support Sandie Peggie directly. I don't think we can add the link here, but it's currently on the front page of the crowdfunded site and is called "In Support of Sandie Peggie".

I think it was set up on the back of the sickly "Treats and Love for Dr Beth" one!

KnottyAuty · 12/02/2025 13:58

NC: Going to look at who on board knew what when re 'hate incident'. your i/v with AG - can we take from this that the decision to make formal complaint happened on 29/12 with KS?
DU No not KS
NC: So with ED on 25/12?
DU not decided, but, option was mentioned then.

In his verbal evidence he already confirmed it was in the meeting on the 29th with KS - they did the Datix and DU said "It was agreed that I would look into making a Formal Complaint"

Datun · 12/02/2025 13:58

ArabellaScott · 12/02/2025 13:43

A useful summation of the morning, from X:

Day 8 Peggie v NHS Fife - Morning Session

Dr Upton’s Cross-Examination Collapses Under Scrutiny, Exposing Contradictions and Obfuscation

Dr Upton’s cross-examination continued its downward spiral as Naomi Cunningham systematically dismantled his testimony, exposing contradictions, evasions, and what appeared to be deliberate obfuscation of key details. Throughout the session, Upton struggled to maintain credibility under sustained pressure, particularly when faced with his inconsistent recollections and apparent attempts to manipulate the investigatory process.

A key focus was the so-called “Snickers patient” incident, where Upton was questioned on whether he had worked alongside Sandy Peggie in that case.

Initially, he denied recalling her presence, but when presented with Peggie’s own clear recollection of the event, he wavered, unable to provide a confident response. Cunningham pressed him on whether he was deliberately obscuring the details, pointing out that if he had given a precise date for the incident, it would allow for corroboration—something she suggested he wanted to avoid.

Upton, predictably, denied this, claiming he simply couldn’t be sure, though the pattern of vagueness whenever a corroborating witness might be found did not help his case. The timeline of Upton’s escalating complaints was another point of contention. Cunningham laid out the sequence of events, highlighting that while Upton pursued his Christmas Eve grievance with immediate urgency—going as far as emailing colleagues at 3 AM on Christmas morning—his allegations regarding Peggie’s supposed professional misconduct, including the "resus incident," were not raised with the same urgency.

Instead, Upton appeared to have spent weeks consulting with the BMA, repeatedly requesting clarification on the process before submitting his concerns. Cunningham suggested that rather than responding to a genuine professional crisis, Upton had been stalling while he sought legal and regulatory advice on how best to frame his accusations. His insistence that he had merely been waiting for BMA input was undermined by the fact that he had already received their advice, yet continued delaying, supposedly unable to recall whether there had been further communication.

The “resus incident” itself was another major sticking point. Upton had accused Peggie of refusing to work with him during an emergency situation, implying that her “bigotry” had interfered with patient care. Yet, as Cunningham pointed out, if this had truly happened as described, it would have amounted to gross misconduct, warranting immediate suspension. Instead, Upton had waited weeks before raising it as an issue, and when questioned on why he had not escalated it earlier, he downplayed it as a mere “communications issue.”

His assertion that he had simply been “naïve” in not realising its significance did not hold up under scrutiny—especially given how aggressively he pursued the Christmas Eve confrontation, which was ultimately a matter of personal grievance rather than patient safety.

Cunningham then turned to Upton’s handling of investigatory transcripts, an area where his actions raised further doubts about his credibility. Initially, he had approved the notes taken by the investigator, AG, but later insisted they were inaccurate, requesting changes.

The crucial recordings had been deleted before Upton had approved the final version, meaning there was no way to verify his claims that key elements had been misrepresented or omitted. When challenged on why he had not disclosed this rewriting process earlier, Upton feigned ignorance, claiming it was not relevant. Cunningham suggested this was a clear attempt to conceal the fact that he had been unhappy with how his original statements were recorded, leading to the reasonable conclusion that he had actively participated in sanitising or altering the official record.

A particularly revealing moment came when Cunningham exposed the contradiction at the heart of Upton’s approach to workplace relationships. He repeatedly claimed that his complaints against Peggie were purely professional and not personal, yet his obsessive focus on being "validated" in his gender identity overshadowed all other considerations. When Cunningham pointed out that his actions had the effect of forcing female colleagues to comply with his self-perception regardless of their own discomfort or rights, Upton dismissed this as a mere matter of "respect."

The issue, however, was not one of simple politeness but of a fundamental clash between self-identification policies and the objective reality of sex-based spaces and safeguarding concerns. His refusal to acknowledge the legitimacy of female colleagues’ objections spoke volumes. Cunningham then put to him that his demand for validation effectively "flattened everything in its path"—overriding the rights of others, disregarding workplace harmony, and even taking precedence over patient safety.

She highlighted that under his logic, a female colleague expressing discomfort about sharing intimate spaces with a male-bodied individual was an issue of “prejudice” rather than a reasonable expectation of female-only boundaries.

Meanwhile, the principle of maintaining trust in professional relationships—something Upton had earlier agreed was critical in a clinical setting—was suddenly less important when it came to ensuring that female colleagues could trust their working environment to be free from unnecessary conflict. The session ended with a broader question about priorities: was it more important to ensure patient safety, or to compel colleagues to affirm Upton’s gender identity against their will? While he attempted to present both as equally significant, his actions suggested otherwise.

The rapid pursuit of his grievance about being "disrespected" contrasted sharply with his slow-walked reporting of a supposed life-threatening professional failure by a colleague. If he had truly believed Peggie’s conduct in resus posed a patient safety risk, all professional standards dictated that he should have reported it immediately.

The fact that he did not—and instead treated it as a lower-level issue until much later—further suggested that his primary concern was not safeguarding but securing institutional recognition of his self-perception.

By the close of questioning, Upton’s credibility lay in ruins. His attempts to avoid precise dates, his selective amnesia when it came to crucial details, his rewriting of investigatory transcripts, and his failure to escalate a supposedly urgent safety issue all painted a picture of someone whose priorities were not patient welfare, but personal validation.

His own evasions made it abundantly clear that this case was not about professional concerns, but about control—specifically, the control over whether others were permitted to recognise and assert biological reality, or whether they would be compelled to submit to his ideological demands. The tribunal is now left with an unavoidable question: why is NHS Fife still defending him?

https://x.com/boswelltoday/status/1889658598042771565

Edited

I realise there's a bias there in favour of SP, but nonetheless, reading that summary is incredibly helpful.

I hadn't quite realised the exact implications that NC was suggesting.

ickky · 12/02/2025 13:59

NC: And first mention of 'resus' patient?

DU: First explicit mention yes

NC: If we look at the metadata, p908.

NC: This is metadata for 'formal complaint - edited'

DU: and the one above is for the draft sent to BMA

NC: Which says created 31/12, last modified 3/1

DU: Agreed

rebmacesrevda · 12/02/2025 13:59

@CocoapuffPuff Please don't apologise for ranting. I'm pretty sure you've come to the right place to do it!

ickky · 12/02/2025 13:59

oh we are getting to the metadata woohooo

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