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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #14

1000 replies

nauticant · 12/02/2025 11:30

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although once it was in to the second week it was looking like this would not happen. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently, as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13

OP posts:
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14
ickky · 12/02/2025 13:42

NC: First - about your phone notes. It's right AG didn't ask for them, for the investigation?

DU: AFAIrecall no

NC: Nor Esther Davidson?

DU: No

KnottyAuty · 12/02/2025 13:42

Datun · 12/02/2025 13:40

I'm sure someone said you would automatically put someone on temporary suspension while you opened an investigation. Which might be the first investigation?

You will find it easier to understand what is going on if you look at the list of charges - which includes something of a timeline. She was put on Special Leave from 30th Dec. Suspended officially from 4th Jan

Note on the charges here:

Hopefully I have got this summary right - this is the basis of the legal claim by Sandie Pegg (SP) to the Employment Tribunal:
SP (claimant) is the one who has brought the case to the Employment Tribunal (ET) – naming NHS Fife as Respondent 1 (R1) and Dr Upton as Respondent 2 (R2).
She claims against Dr U personally

  • Harassment under EA for being a biological male in the female only CR
  • Whistleblowing – her challenge to Dr U in the CR was a “protected disclosure” that led to “detriments” – Dr U punishing her via formal complaints of bullying and harassment etc.
She claims against NHS Fife:
  • Harassment under the EA regarding “protected beliefs” – citing a list of 12 timeline events:
  • The 3 encounters with Dr U in the CR between Aug & Dec 2023
  • Being put on special leave from 30/12/23
  • Being suspended on 4/1/24
  • Beginning a disciplinary investigation based on Dr U’s complaint
  • Continuing SP’s suspension on 2/2/24
  • Sought to persuade SP to return to work not at Vic Hospital 7/3/24
  • Refused to guarantee SP access to a female only CR 7/3/24
  • Extending SP’s suspension pending agreement on shifts 7/3/24
  • Requiring SP return to work on day shifts in order to be supervised (due to Dr U’s allegations on concern about patient care) 7/3/24
  • Informing SP of an allegation and investigation about patient care 28/3/24
  • Failing to progress the disciplinary investigation promptly
  • Prohibiting SP from discussing these legal matters/issues at work.
  • Harassment under EA as in 2a for letting Dr U use the female CR and permitting other staff to use a CR that aligns with their gender identity
  • Victimisation (which I think is the indirect harassment bit?) similar to 3a but with 3 additional “detriments” including being informed of alleged bullying and unwanted behaviours to a colleague, as well as being asked to work day shifts in place of nights.
  • Whistleblowing complaint with similar detriments as the victimisation claim in 3c
The NHS/Dr U team have responded to accept that the events listed in the claim happened but the don’t accept the claims of harassment and say that they only allow staff to use CRs based on their gender identity on a case-by-case basis (ie my words: not just any old Tom Dick or Harry can march into the ladies) The NHS/Dr U allege it was SP who behaved inappropriately and that what she said was not a “protected disclosure” or a “protected act” so the subsequent events were not “detriments” to her (again my words – under the law she wouldn’t qualify for protection against victimisation or whistleblowing) The NHS/Dr U confirmed that they would not rely on the “all reasonable steps” defence under the EA regarding Dr U’s conduct – saying this claim is vexatious and should not be pursued. (Sorry the MN text editor has removed my original numbering so there will be some odd references which you can hopefully infer)
ArabellaScott · 12/02/2025 13:43

A useful summation of the morning, from X:

Day 8 Peggie v NHS Fife - Morning Session

Dr Upton’s Cross-Examination Collapses Under Scrutiny, Exposing Contradictions and Obfuscation

Dr Upton’s cross-examination continued its downward spiral as Naomi Cunningham systematically dismantled his testimony, exposing contradictions, evasions, and what appeared to be deliberate obfuscation of key details. Throughout the session, Upton struggled to maintain credibility under sustained pressure, particularly when faced with his inconsistent recollections and apparent attempts to manipulate the investigatory process.

A key focus was the so-called “Snickers patient” incident, where Upton was questioned on whether he had worked alongside Sandy Peggie in that case.

Initially, he denied recalling her presence, but when presented with Peggie’s own clear recollection of the event, he wavered, unable to provide a confident response. Cunningham pressed him on whether he was deliberately obscuring the details, pointing out that if he had given a precise date for the incident, it would allow for corroboration—something she suggested he wanted to avoid.

Upton, predictably, denied this, claiming he simply couldn’t be sure, though the pattern of vagueness whenever a corroborating witness might be found did not help his case. The timeline of Upton’s escalating complaints was another point of contention. Cunningham laid out the sequence of events, highlighting that while Upton pursued his Christmas Eve grievance with immediate urgency—going as far as emailing colleagues at 3 AM on Christmas morning—his allegations regarding Peggie’s supposed professional misconduct, including the "resus incident," were not raised with the same urgency.

Instead, Upton appeared to have spent weeks consulting with the BMA, repeatedly requesting clarification on the process before submitting his concerns. Cunningham suggested that rather than responding to a genuine professional crisis, Upton had been stalling while he sought legal and regulatory advice on how best to frame his accusations. His insistence that he had merely been waiting for BMA input was undermined by the fact that he had already received their advice, yet continued delaying, supposedly unable to recall whether there had been further communication.

The “resus incident” itself was another major sticking point. Upton had accused Peggie of refusing to work with him during an emergency situation, implying that her “bigotry” had interfered with patient care. Yet, as Cunningham pointed out, if this had truly happened as described, it would have amounted to gross misconduct, warranting immediate suspension. Instead, Upton had waited weeks before raising it as an issue, and when questioned on why he had not escalated it earlier, he downplayed it as a mere “communications issue.”

His assertion that he had simply been “naïve” in not realising its significance did not hold up under scrutiny—especially given how aggressively he pursued the Christmas Eve confrontation, which was ultimately a matter of personal grievance rather than patient safety.

Cunningham then turned to Upton’s handling of investigatory transcripts, an area where his actions raised further doubts about his credibility. Initially, he had approved the notes taken by the investigator, AG, but later insisted they were inaccurate, requesting changes.

The crucial recordings had been deleted before Upton had approved the final version, meaning there was no way to verify his claims that key elements had been misrepresented or omitted. When challenged on why he had not disclosed this rewriting process earlier, Upton feigned ignorance, claiming it was not relevant. Cunningham suggested this was a clear attempt to conceal the fact that he had been unhappy with how his original statements were recorded, leading to the reasonable conclusion that he had actively participated in sanitising or altering the official record.

A particularly revealing moment came when Cunningham exposed the contradiction at the heart of Upton’s approach to workplace relationships. He repeatedly claimed that his complaints against Peggie were purely professional and not personal, yet his obsessive focus on being "validated" in his gender identity overshadowed all other considerations. When Cunningham pointed out that his actions had the effect of forcing female colleagues to comply with his self-perception regardless of their own discomfort or rights, Upton dismissed this as a mere matter of "respect."

The issue, however, was not one of simple politeness but of a fundamental clash between self-identification policies and the objective reality of sex-based spaces and safeguarding concerns. His refusal to acknowledge the legitimacy of female colleagues’ objections spoke volumes. Cunningham then put to him that his demand for validation effectively "flattened everything in its path"—overriding the rights of others, disregarding workplace harmony, and even taking precedence over patient safety.

She highlighted that under his logic, a female colleague expressing discomfort about sharing intimate spaces with a male-bodied individual was an issue of “prejudice” rather than a reasonable expectation of female-only boundaries.

Meanwhile, the principle of maintaining trust in professional relationships—something Upton had earlier agreed was critical in a clinical setting—was suddenly less important when it came to ensuring that female colleagues could trust their working environment to be free from unnecessary conflict. The session ended with a broader question about priorities: was it more important to ensure patient safety, or to compel colleagues to affirm Upton’s gender identity against their will? While he attempted to present both as equally significant, his actions suggested otherwise.

The rapid pursuit of his grievance about being "disrespected" contrasted sharply with his slow-walked reporting of a supposed life-threatening professional failure by a colleague. If he had truly believed Peggie’s conduct in resus posed a patient safety risk, all professional standards dictated that he should have reported it immediately.

The fact that he did not—and instead treated it as a lower-level issue until much later—further suggested that his primary concern was not safeguarding but securing institutional recognition of his self-perception.

By the close of questioning, Upton’s credibility lay in ruins. His attempts to avoid precise dates, his selective amnesia when it came to crucial details, his rewriting of investigatory transcripts, and his failure to escalate a supposedly urgent safety issue all painted a picture of someone whose priorities were not patient welfare, but personal validation.

His own evasions made it abundantly clear that this case was not about professional concerns, but about control—specifically, the control over whether others were permitted to recognise and assert biological reality, or whether they would be compelled to submit to his ideological demands. The tribunal is now left with an unavoidable question: why is NHS Fife still defending him?

https://x.com/boswelltoday/status/1889658598042771565

x.com

https://x.com/boswelltoday/status/1889658598042771565

ickky · 12/02/2025 13:43

NC: And you didn't volunteer them?

DU: Was not asked for them

NC: Why didn't you volunteer them?

DU: Wasn't asked, I was asked for a summary, assumed notes would be discussed in interview, which it was

Boiledbeetle · 12/02/2025 13:44

He makes a substantial amount of assumptions doesn't he!

Justabaker · 12/02/2025 13:44

NebulousDogwhistle · 12/02/2025 12:26

I was going to be PeteThePlumber but that was already taken. I haven't seen the poor guy around though, perhaps that really was his gravestone.

https://x.com/QcWynter/status/1889288105913463268

x.com

https://x.com/QcWynter/status/1889288105913463268

Shortshriftandlethal · 12/02/2025 13:44

J: So - timings? NC: I hope to be finished in an hour. J: Good, let's proceed

If Judge had managed J's interventions and DU prevarications better, then NC would have all the time she needed to do her job.

ickky · 12/02/2025 13:44

NC: Please look at p[]. This is part of C's response to the matters in the disciplinary i/x. Says, there are a no of references to R2 log entries but that these have not been provided. I assume you were asked to after this?

DU: Yes I think so

Datun · 12/02/2025 13:44

KnottyAuty · 12/02/2025 13:42

You will find it easier to understand what is going on if you look at the list of charges - which includes something of a timeline. She was put on Special Leave from 30th Dec. Suspended officially from 4th Jan

Note on the charges here:

Hopefully I have got this summary right - this is the basis of the legal claim by Sandie Pegg (SP) to the Employment Tribunal:
SP (claimant) is the one who has brought the case to the Employment Tribunal (ET) – naming NHS Fife as Respondent 1 (R1) and Dr Upton as Respondent 2 (R2).
She claims against Dr U personally

  • Harassment under EA for being a biological male in the female only CR
  • Whistleblowing – her challenge to Dr U in the CR was a “protected disclosure” that led to “detriments” – Dr U punishing her via formal complaints of bullying and harassment etc.
She claims against NHS Fife:
  • Harassment under the EA regarding “protected beliefs” – citing a list of 12 timeline events:
  • The 3 encounters with Dr U in the CR between Aug & Dec 2023
  • Being put on special leave from 30/12/23
  • Being suspended on 4/1/24
  • Beginning a disciplinary investigation based on Dr U’s complaint
  • Continuing SP’s suspension on 2/2/24
  • Sought to persuade SP to return to work not at Vic Hospital 7/3/24
  • Refused to guarantee SP access to a female only CR 7/3/24
  • Extending SP’s suspension pending agreement on shifts 7/3/24
  • Requiring SP return to work on day shifts in order to be supervised (due to Dr U’s allegations on concern about patient care) 7/3/24
  • Informing SP of an allegation and investigation about patient care 28/3/24
  • Failing to progress the disciplinary investigation promptly
  • Prohibiting SP from discussing these legal matters/issues at work.
  • Harassment under EA as in 2a for letting Dr U use the female CR and permitting other staff to use a CR that aligns with their gender identity
  • Victimisation (which I think is the indirect harassment bit?) similar to 3a but with 3 additional “detriments” including being informed of alleged bullying and unwanted behaviours to a colleague, as well as being asked to work day shifts in place of nights.
  • Whistleblowing complaint with similar detriments as the victimisation claim in 3c
The NHS/Dr U team have responded to accept that the events listed in the claim happened but the don’t accept the claims of harassment and say that they only allow staff to use CRs based on their gender identity on a case-by-case basis (ie my words: not just any old Tom Dick or Harry can march into the ladies) The NHS/Dr U allege it was SP who behaved inappropriately and that what she said was not a “protected disclosure” or a “protected act” so the subsequent events were not “detriments” to her (again my words – under the law she wouldn’t qualify for protection against victimisation or whistleblowing) The NHS/Dr U confirmed that they would not rely on the “all reasonable steps” defence under the EA regarding Dr U’s conduct – saying this claim is vexatious and should not be pursued. (Sorry the MN text editor has removed my original numbering so there will be some odd references which you can hopefully infer)

Thank you!

Playing catch up means I miss some detail

ickky · 12/02/2025 13:45

NC: We know they are in [date] version of the bundle, so when you were asked for them?

DU: Don't know. Emails might show when?

NC: But never asked to supply them to the investigations?

DU: No never asked for them

RethinkingLife · 12/02/2025 13:45

Mountaingoat23 · 12/02/2025 13:21

IANAL but someone posted minutes earlier from the Fife internal ?Workforce Governance Committee of 15/2/24 where the incident was already logged as a hate crime. But as of 17/2 email referred to today they were still chasing DU for a written complaint. So all the things that are going to emerge today should have been available to nhsFife's solicitors before JR was appointed. I don't think there will be any surprises for their Board, just horror that it turned out this way.

Hasn't an R1 witness been withdrawn due to long term sickness. That will be another interesting part of the story that we may never hear about.

pg 308

https://www.nhsfife.org/media/4kulbqyp/staff-govenance-comittee-final-boardbook-final-20240513.pdf

https://www.nhsfife.org/media/4kulbqyp/staff-govenance-comittee-final-boardbook-final-20240513.pdf

ickky · 12/02/2025 13:46

NC: We see here KS saying she's aware of your logs. Can you say why she seems to think you have logs of EVERY incident?

DU: [too fast - refers back to discussion before lunch]

TriesNotToBeCynical · 12/02/2025 13:46

lifeturnsonadime · 12/02/2025 13:33

The fact that EVERYONE treated the 'transphobia' allegation more seriously than patient safety is not a good look for either respondent.

Isn't establishing the falsity of the professional practice allegations valuable to the claimant apart from any effect on the tribunal claim?

ickky · 12/02/2025 13:47

NC: [page ref] we see no reference here to the resuscitation incident, or any concerns re prof conduct or patient safety?

DU: Disagree. Says here, last para, 'escalation of previous behaviour' re interacting with me.

ickky · 12/02/2025 13:48

DU: so I agree there's no explicit ref to resus or prof conduct, but disagree there's no reference to them

AMillionMugsNoTeabags · 12/02/2025 13:48

ickky · 12/02/2025 13:47

NC: [page ref] we see no reference here to the resuscitation incident, or any concerns re prof conduct or patient safety?

DU: Disagree. Says here, last para, 'escalation of previous behaviour' re interacting with me.

It’s never about patient safety is it, it’s all about interactions with meeeeeee

ickky · 12/02/2025 13:48

NC: [page] so this is a Datix. I assume this is some kind of automated alert we are looking at?

DU: I don't know - it looks as if this one is an alert to an investigator, I agree.

lifeturnsonadime · 12/02/2025 13:49

TriesNotToBeCynical · 12/02/2025 13:46

Isn't establishing the falsity of the professional practice allegations valuable to the claimant apart from any effect on the tribunal claim?

It's a win win, isn't it? Either it was false/ didn't happen or if it did happen they didn't handle it properly, treated the alleged 'transphobia' more seriously.

I think it goes to the fact that it didn't happen that correct reporting procedures weren't carried out. I think more about that will come out in the XX of the 2nd respondent.

Akela64 · 12/02/2025 13:49

The decision in the case against Upton is critical for sex based protections in the workplace. IMO it's the cornerstone, not the side show. Male employees using a female staff CR would be committing sexual harassment and employers who ignored it would have no defense against claims of discrimination by female employees.

Not sure if a GCR would muddy the waters. Supreme Court will be sorting that one out.

ickky · 12/02/2025 13:50

NC: Talk me through how you and KS filed the datix.

DU: KS typed, checked with me throughout whether she was getting it right.

NC: And names of submittor would go int?

DU: Yes

NC: And where?

DU would think so yes, haven't done one for a while

Winterwonders24 · 12/02/2025 13:50

ickky · 12/02/2025 13:48

NC: [page] so this is a Datix. I assume this is some kind of automated alert we are looking at?

DU: I don't know - it looks as if this one is an alert to an investigator, I agree.

Sorry, he surely isn't saying he doesn't know what a Datix is?!?!

Shortshriftandlethal · 12/02/2025 13:50

NC: [page ref] we see no reference here to the resuscitation incident, or any concerns re prof conduct or patient safety? DU: Disagree. Says here, last para, 'escalation of previous behaviour' re interacting with me.

This Suggest the resus 'incident' is marked down not as patient safety issue by DU, but as an escalation of bigotry

Lunde · 12/02/2025 13:51

ickky · 12/02/2025 13:42

J: So - timings?
NC: I hope to be finished in an hour.
J: Good, let's proceed

Is this going to be like the Judge's one hour lunch breaks?

Shortshriftandlethal · 12/02/2025 13:51

DU: so I agree there's no explicit ref to resus or prof conduct

ickky · 12/02/2025 13:51

NC: There are a number of fields? [lists] Location, date, brief descr, immediate action taken, personal details (of complainant), impact, likelihood of recurrence, immediate treatment given, remedial action to reduce risk of recurrence, others involved in observing or reporting.

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