NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #11

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although at the start of the second week getting everything done in this time period was looking less certain. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10

Thanks again for the excellent thread management @nauticant

The earrings are apparently not the same, stated a number of times on previous threads.

I noticed yesterday that NC mentioned 'submissions' a few times which appeared to be something that happened after all evidence has been heard. Does anyone know what this means?

His fitness to practise is surely questionable using GMC’s own criteria.

www.gmc-uk.org/-/media/documents/DC4483_Guidance_to_the_FTP_Rules_28626691.pdf

Effectively it's summing up where at the end of the evidence each side presents a summary of their case. For this case it's going to be fascinating. However, they might run out of time and submissions might not happen for some time.

Morning all. I was optimistic that it would actually start on time today. Still WFTCHTJ

Well we kinda knew it wouldn't start on time, didn't we?😂

Can I just repeat this important plea from a PP on the previous thread:

Dear lovely fellow mumsnetters,
Please could I ask you not to speculate about the close family members around this abusive, controlling, gaslighting man? They haven't spoken publicly, and we don't know what is going on behind closed doors. The national press coverage about this man's cruelty and contempt for women will be creating massive stresses and tension for his wife, and she didn't ask for any of it.

I'd also like to add another plea to avoid gratuitous remarks about appearance. The earrings thing is untrue and these sorts of comments tend to muddy the water and make it seem reasonable to view this man as a victim

After all the evidence, both barristers get to argue it out. That's where you pull the evidence together, show how it supports or doesn't support the argument, link it all in to the law, and ultimately persuade the court.
Submissions are where you win or lose, I always think.

Absolutely agree. If NHS Fife & Dr Upton lose this case then there is a serious question about whether he lied in his complaints about patient care by SP and lied in court. Lying in court should result in him being struck off.

Yep. Optimism not yet dulled by experience.

9:47 <drums fingers irritably>

Yes. It's all nonsense.

Yes. I don't see how patient care is unaffected, either by his belief that biological sex is 'nebulous' or that any patient who says the things SP said would be classed as aggressive and confrontational (my understanding is that would be a reason to deny or withold treatment).

Anyone else struggling to get the Tribunal Tweets page to load?

Checking in, i've got access this morning, want to hear the big guy speak.

Ha! I just noticed the time and thought I might have missed something. But no...

Yes, this again.

Please keep in mind access to the ET is at the discretion of the judge.

As a male in her female space.

NC has clarified that DU entered the space against SP’s will and did not back down when challenged. There may be more to come about the specifics of this 🤷‍♀️. NC has made it very clear that DU is an entitled male. We are yet to find out whether he was actually allowed to be there, under NHS policy.

He’s not going to crack under her questioning and admit that he isn’t a woman. I get the impression he was enjoying the platform,

You filled up the last thread while I was in the middle of typing an answer to FallenSloppyDead's comment about NHS chaning room policy allowing this.

It's in the online EDI training the English NHS used up to last year (don't know about Scotland, and dont know if they've since changed it because I left).

Slide 5. Anyone who identifies as trans - including non-binary - is entitled [not just permitted, entitled] to use their chosen toilets and changing facilities from the moment they state their identity. They state [wrongly] that this is enshrined in law.

Sorry if this has been posted but DU isn't allowed any legal advice at this stage that relates to his ongoing testimony. He could be told to withdraw.

With regard to the brilliant poem share in the last thread, what a phenomenal bit of writing. Having just searched R Irischild I've seen it dates to 2017. Some of you have been fighting this for so long, I feel embarrassed to have taken so long to wake up to it. It was New Years Day 2023 that I saw what was right under my nose.

I'm in!

Here we go.

In!

My first time ever joining and now I now what you all mean by WFTCHTJ.

Really gets on your nerves, doesn't it?