Labour members back Starmers stance on self ID

[Theeyeballsinthesky]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/nov/26/labour-grassroots-back-starmer-gender-self-identification

Members back ending of support for self-identification and broadly share views of public on gender recognition, says Labour Together group

"Two-thirds (67%) approved of Labour’s new policy to streamline the securing of a gender recognition certificate by removing a panel of doctors and lawyers from the process, allowing a single doctor to diagnose “gender dysphoria”."

Worrying. Also:

"as well as continuing to ensure some single-sex services and places could only be accessed by biological women."

Which ones? When? How will this be protected if you can choose any old doctor and what kind of doctor are we talking?

More reasons for a post-legislative review of the GRA before even more tinkering with what's plainly a failed, bad piece of law.

I suspect that most of those polled don't realise that the "trans person" will be able to Cherry pick any dr, even a private gp like Helen weberley and that it doesn't need to be a psychiatrist either

It feels like light has started to dawn a bit but yes it’s still very worrying that a large minority of Labour members think women should have no right to single sex spaces.

“A majority of Labour members (62%) said they believed there are some cases in which transgender women should be excluded from single-sex services and spaces, with 22% disagreeing.”

I think it’s because lots of people - whoever they vote for - still do not understand the issue. Despite a few high profile cases like Isla Bryson they still don’t fully appreciate how widespread trans ideology is and how much influence it has had over many institutions.

Catch up, Labour members. Please.

So many people are only dimly aware of these issues, and many still think a 'transwoman' is a born woman.

And according to that recent survey, a significant proportion (was it 1/3?) have no idea what 'transgender women' means.

By the European Court of Human Rights decision, you had to legally recognise "sex change" for post operation transsexuals done on the NHS.

That this then could end up being, just cherry pick a private doctor to sign off on you having gender dysphoria...

Trans-activism: "We don't deny biological sex".

Also: "We need to be able to falsify biological sex on birth certificates".

I suppose it shouldn't be surprising that so many are happy with the sex fudge. Depressing, though.

"as well as continuing to ensure some single-sex services and places could only be accessed by biological women."

Its a bizarre statement. The language is not clear.

Does it mean that womens single sex space are single sex only, and the mens may be open to women? Or does is mean that some/most single sex spaces will not be single sex at all?

Also, 'biological women' is a rebranding of 'cis women'. It's labours attempt to force women into a sub category of their own class, and forcing gender identity onto everyone.

If politicians believe in the policies, and want the electrate to know what they are voting for, they would quit with the ridiculous languge and complicated statements.

They should say, 'labour support the inclusion of men into most women only spaces'. If they cant say it honesty, they know the policy is wrong.

The truth is, if women accepted some men as women, and welcomed them into their spaces, there would be no need to make a law to give these men access.

Its the fact that they are not seen as women and push their way into womens spaces that these policies have to be designed.

Starmer doesn’t seem to know what his own stance on self ID is, leave alone Labour members. I have no faith in the man at all, or in Labour, unless they come up with some very clear policy on this issue. It is a depressing situation all around.

Well quite. I read the thread title and thought “Starmer has a stance on self-ID? Has anyone told him?”

Labour Women's Declaration statement on the article. :

Polling of UKLabour members shows support for policy shift against self-ID & in support of retention of medical process & single-sex exceptions.
It confirms our Declaration represents mainstream views of members.
We take issue with the wording of..

..the survey's question in relation to the members’ response to the party’s policy shift. This conflates two separate issues, ie the move away from self-ID, with the un-evidenced proposal that the number of doctors involved in the diagnosis is reduced from two to one...

..However, the overall response still makes clear that party members, along with UK voters, agree with the retention of the gatekeeping of a medical diagnosis in the Gender Recognition process & the effective application of the single-sex exceptions..

..It's now time for UKLabour to consolidate its policy shift and to welcome dialogue with the thousands of sex realist Labour voters who have signed our Declaration.
There are very many Labour politicians who know that sex is real but still don’t speak out because of the..

..years of abuse of sex realist women & lesbians in particular by sex denialists inside & outside of our party.
We call on our party colleagues to take heart from this survey, to cease fearing paper tigers & to speak out freely.
We are the majority, our time has come, join us.

Also check out the threads on Developments in Scottish and Welsh Labour on women's rights and the latest moves against Rosie too.

Wales:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4950670-dentons-playbook-again-in-use-welsh-labour-womens-conference

Scotland:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4950869-scottish-labour-womens-conference-motion-5-passed-womens-voices-as-a-sex-class-must-be-heard

This is ALL interconnected. The fight is only going to get more heated.

Oh no! Everyone's going to have to think up a new excuse to vote Tory.

I agree. You'd have thought, maybe, that Labour Party members would be a bit more engaged with the topic than Joe Public. But only marginally, it seems. That 62% supporting single-sex spaces is depressingly low. But there is still the overall tone that nothing too arduous must be put in the way of these heroes who want to be treated as women, so let's not bother with this fiddlesome 'two doctors' stuff.

Really, like a lot of Guardian pieces these days, it's a puff-piece for Starmer. He's an unlikely guy to lionise, that's for sure.

It’s a tentative step to reposition. Just as the Tories softly trial changes via pieces in the Daily Mail or Telegraph, Labour do similar with Guardian and Observer via pet journalists

Good point @lanadelgrey it does feel like a bit of flag flying to see what the response is

Its this. In real life, when I actually discuss it with people, they agree with me. Most people have not thought it through and don't realise what it means.

I never understand this sneering.
Why do you think anyone needs to make up a reason to vote however they want? Who is actually going to know what someone does in the election booth?

I've never voted Tory but if I wanted to I would, and no amount of hectoring from Labour activists would change that.

Why are we fighting for the retention of a gatekeeping process which has no real meaning or utility?

The GRA was designed for transsexuals, but most transwomen now do not have genital surgery.

The GRA was designed for people in psychological torment, but now doctors are told that failing to affirm a patient's self-declared gender (by trying to counsel them) is transphobic.

The requirement to live in the acquired gender for a certain period was intended to test genuineness by being rigorous and even somewhat humiliating. But cross-dressing is now more acceptable, plus I fear that for some the humiliation may even be the point.

This is not a counsel of despair. I just don't think this is the part of the system where we need to apply pressure. Because our problems don't just relate to people with GRCs, but to anyone with the PC of gender reassignment, which is a much bigger group.

I've started to think the people who pop up on certain threads purely to hector women for their voting choices are often actually working for the other side of who they appear to be - so presumably EatMyHead is here to make Labour look bad.

Starmer is a spineless weathervane of a politician but at least he has discovered which way the wind is blowing on this one.

Because many people explicitly say that while the current government is terrible, has decimated public services and living standards isn't it awful yada yada, they HAVE to vote for them because Labour "don't know what a woman is".

Of course there are others who are actively happy with the Tories. I didn't mean "everyone" literally.

Presuming things is fun! 😆

I’m not sure. I think they really think they can hector women

I don’t know what that article is meant to be other than more Labour PR

There is no change. Men can get GRC female certificates. Starmer wants to ‘take the public with him’