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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Please help! Gender not sex on a school 'protected characteristics' poster, just spoken to the Head!

994 replies

Vebrithien · 06/01/2023 09:55

Good morning,

I started this thread before Christmas

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4684558-today-i-found-my-bravery?page=1

The overview is that my DD's primary school is displaying posters by No Outsiders, which are supposed to show the 9 protected characteristics, but shows gender, not sex.

The (male) deputy head I mentioned it to, before Christmas, has not got back to me. The posters are still there.

I summoned up my courage this morning, and spoke to the Headteacher. She seemed surprised, as I said I'd already mentioned it to one deputy head, and that I'd picked up on it due to my school expecting Ofsted, and reissuing our equality training.

The Head said that it was surprising, as No Outsiders were an organisation whose specialism was equalities.

I replied that the EA2010 says sex, not gender. I also mentioned that there were some concerning resources produced by them, including an assembly where a dad wants to offer violence to children who do not accept his trans child. (I know no more than this)

The Head is going to talk to her other deputy head, whose responsibility this is, and to try to put us in contact.

Where do I do from here?

Can any one help me with evidence? What particularly is dodgy about No Outsiders?

Is there anything that states that schools mustn't misrepresent the EA?

Is there any DofE (or whatever it's called now) guidance for schools on the resources they used or how they represent the EA?

And, how should I go about finding out if the school uses other No Outsiders resources?

Please help, I want as much evidence as I can.

Still shaking with adrenaline from speaking to the Head!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
pattihews · 06/01/2023 11:03

EastLondonObserver · 06/01/2023 10:15

Gender is not only fine, but preferable. Calm down.

Can you give us the precise legal definition of gender, please?

pattihews · 06/01/2023 11:05

This link to Sex Matters explains how using gender instead of sex undermines safeguarding:

sex-matters.org/where-sex-matters/schools-and-safeguarding/

TeaKlaxon · 06/01/2023 11:17

What an off hill to die on since the law is clear that the EA2010 does not only apply to biological sex.

Given the number of people who mistakenly think ‘sex’ only means biological sex, saying the EA protects based on gender is arguably more accurate - contextually if not textually - given that, for example a trans woman who is discriminated against for being a woman could enjoy the same protection as a cis woman.

Based on the responses on here, simply saying EA protects against discrimination based on sex could give rise to the mistaken belief that a trans woman discriminated again for being a woman would not enjoy protection.

waterwitch · 06/01/2023 11:23

OP and Rabbit thank you for the work you are doing, it is very valuable
💐💐💐

FuckNuggets · 06/01/2023 11:24

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 06/01/2023 11:28

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 06/01/2023 10:59

I'd begin with the fact that the author of No Outsiders says it is designed to teach about the Equality Act, but that it gets the most basic (and easily checked) facts about the Act wrong. Whether that is accidental or deliberate, it is impossible to say, but if it is wrong about that underpinning fact, how can you trust anything else it says to be true?

If you want, tou could then delve into the background of the programme (Gendered Intelligence, queer theory), whether it actually takes an equal look at all aspects of the Act (it doesn't), and whether it is skewed towards presenting certain beliefs (gender being assigned, and being more important than sex) as fact rather than as things some people believe.

For the second part, you'll find some useful discussion points in www.transgendertrend.com/no-outsiders-queering-primary-classroom/

Good to see the Transgender Trend article linked here.
Sex matters, the law matters - individuals and groups who repeatedly misrepresent the law - especially in relation to children don't matter.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 06/01/2023 11:29

Oxford Languages dictionary definition of sex for the terminally confused:

"either of the two main categories (male and female) into which humans and most other living things are divided on the basis of their reproductive functions"

Apollo441 · 06/01/2023 11:30

TeaKlaxon · 06/01/2023 11:17

What an off hill to die on since the law is clear that the EA2010 does not only apply to biological sex.

Given the number of people who mistakenly think ‘sex’ only means biological sex, saying the EA protects based on gender is arguably more accurate - contextually if not textually - given that, for example a trans woman who is discriminated against for being a woman could enjoy the same protection as a cis woman.

Based on the responses on here, simply saying EA protects against discrimination based on sex could give rise to the mistaken belief that a trans woman discriminated again for being a woman would not enjoy protection.

Gaslighting bullshit. Sex is the protected characteristic not gender. Words matter. The attempt to conflate the matter only serves gender ideologues. We are going to call you out every.single.time. You have got away with this dishonesty for too long.

rabbitwoman · 06/01/2023 11:31

What kind of discrimination are both trans women and women subjected to that men and trans men are not, teaklaxon?

Because sex discrimination against women would very much be based in the biological realities of having babies, being mothers and therefore having smaller, weaker bodies that make us more vulnerable. Trans men also are vulnerable to those discriminations.

Men are also victims of harassment, abuse and assault, and would be protected by the same laws that protect everyone.

'sex' groups trans men and women together because they are vulnerable to the same distinct discrimination as women that does not impact on men and trans women.

maddy68 · 06/01/2023 11:31

Why do you think your opinion trumps that of the school?

rabbitwoman · 06/01/2023 11:31

waterwitch · 06/01/2023 11:23

OP and Rabbit thank you for the work you are doing, it is very valuable
💐💐💐

That's lovely. Thank you xx

LaughingPriest · 06/01/2023 11:32

I see some posters claim that sex and gender are interchangeable. Which denies the existence of trans people. I won't report it though, so others can see and learn.

rabbitwoman · 06/01/2023 11:33

maddy68 · 06/01/2023 11:31

Why do you think your opinion trumps that of the school?

The law.

EastLondonObserver · 06/01/2023 11:34

NancyDrawed · 06/01/2023 10:19

Why do you think that gender is preferable to sex?

Sex being reality and gender being an ideology

Because despite your protestations, the reality is you’ve lost that debate.

DialSquare · 06/01/2023 11:35

Has there been a debate?

Biscuitsneeded · 06/01/2023 11:35

@rabbitwoman If DM you, please could you send me a copy too? Am a teacher and I have LBGTQ+ training next week. Person in charge does not fill me with confidence so I want to make sure I have the latest guidance. God, never thought I would be glad (on this ALONE I hasten to add) to have a Tory in charge! Thank you.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 06/01/2023 11:36

EastLondonObserver · 06/01/2023 11:34

Because despite your protestations, the reality is you’ve lost that debate.

Come back and repeat that when men are gestating and birthing babies 😂😂

rabbitwoman · 06/01/2023 11:37

Biscuitsneeded · 06/01/2023 11:35

@rabbitwoman If DM you, please could you send me a copy too? Am a teacher and I have LBGTQ+ training next week. Person in charge does not fill me with confidence so I want to make sure I have the latest guidance. God, never thought I would be glad (on this ALONE I hasten to add) to have a Tory in charge! Thank you.

Yes, if anyone wants a copy private message me your email, I will send it as a pdf 😉

WiseUpJanetWeiss · 06/01/2023 11:38

TeaKlaxon · 06/01/2023 11:17

What an off hill to die on since the law is clear that the EA2010 does not only apply to biological sex.

Given the number of people who mistakenly think ‘sex’ only means biological sex, saying the EA protects based on gender is arguably more accurate - contextually if not textually - given that, for example a trans woman who is discriminated against for being a woman could enjoy the same protection as a cis woman.

Based on the responses on here, simply saying EA protects against discrimination based on sex could give rise to the mistaken belief that a trans woman discriminated again for being a woman would not enjoy protection.

Where is it clarified in law that sex does not mean biological sex?

LaughingPriest · 06/01/2023 11:38

Op good luck. Often when real situations like this are posted, people who aren't here in good faith try to derail the thread with lazy snipes - best to ignore and just scroll past (in my view).

FuckNuggets · 06/01/2023 11:40

LaughingPriest · 06/01/2023 11:32

I see some posters claim that sex and gender are interchangeable. Which denies the existence of trans people. I won't report it though, so others can see and learn.

I deny the existence of god. There you can report my post.

FuckNuggets · 06/01/2023 11:40

Because despite your protestations, the reality is you’ve lost that debate.

What debate?

EastLondonObserver · 06/01/2023 11:41

MrsOvertonsWindow · 06/01/2023 11:36

Come back and repeat that when men are gestating and birthing babies 😂😂

Chuckle all you like but the legal winds of change across large chunks of the western world aren’t blowing in your favour.

Tinysoxxx · 06/01/2023 11:46

EastLondonObserver · 06/01/2023 10:15

Gender is not only fine, but preferable. Calm down.

Don’t let me down, Bruce
Don’t let me down, Bruce
Don't let me doooowwwwnnnnn

LaughingPriest · 06/01/2023 11:48

I for one am gutted that no-one is blowing chunks in my direction Sad

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