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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Allison Bailey v Stonewall - Employment Tribunal hearing Thread 18

995 replies

ickky · 22/06/2022 20:26

The Tribunal started on 25th April, witness testimony concluded on the 26th May. Closing arguments for council was on the 20th June.

There was also live tweeting from

twitter.com/tribunaltweets

Abbreviations:

AB: Allison Bailey, claimant
BC: Ben Cooper QC, barrister for AB
SW = Stonewall Equality Limited (respondent 1)
IO = Ijeoma Omambala QC, senior counsel - barrister for SW
RW = Robin White junior counsel to SW - assisting IO
GC = Garden Court Chambers Limited (respondent 2) (GCC )
AH = Andrew Hochhauser QC, senior counsel - barrister for GC
JR = Jane Russell junior counsel to GC - assisting AH
RM= Rajiv Menon QC & SH = Stephanie Harrison QC (jointly respondent 3 along with all members of GC except AB)
EJ = Employment Judge Goodman hearing the case

Panel = Judge Goodman, Mr M. Reuby and Ms Darmas

Thread 1 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4529887-Allison-Bailey-v-Stonewall-Employment-Tribunal-hearing?

Thread 2 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4542466-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-2

Thread 3 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4545725-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-3

Thread 4 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4546945-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-4

Thread 5 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4548160-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-5

Thread 6 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4550451-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-6

Thread 7 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4551757-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-7

Thread 8 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4552521-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-8

Thread 9 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4553181-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-9

Thread 10 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4553754-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-10

Thread 11 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4555145-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-11

Thread 12 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4555687-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-12

Thread 13 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4556235-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-13

Thread 14 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4556407-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-14

Thread 15 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4556803-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-15

Thread 16 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4557036-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-16

Thread 17 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4561850-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-17

Allison Bailey - claimant (4-9, 11-13 May)

Witnesses for the claimant:

Dr Nicola Williams - Fair Play for Women (29 April)
Dr Judith Green - A Woman's Place (29 April)
Kate Barker - LGB Alliance (3 May)
Lisa-Marie Taylor - FiLiA (4 May)

Witnesses for the respondents:

Stephen Lue - barrister for GCC (3-4 May)
Zainab Al-Farabi - ex Stonewall (10 May)
Kirrin Medcalf - head of trans inclusion Stonewall (10 May)
Leslie Thomas - barrister at GCC (13 May)
Sanjay Sood Smith - Stonewall (16 May)
Shaan Knan - LGBT consortium - on STAG (16 May)
Rajiv Menon - joint head of chambers (16-17 May)
Maya Sikand - barrister at GCC (17-18 May)
Mia Hakl-Law - HR senior for GCC (18 May)
Judy Khan - barrister at GCC (19-20 May)
Charlie Tennent - clerk at GCC (20 May)
Luke Harvey - clerk at GCC (20 May)
Louise Hooper - Barrister at GCC (20 May)
David Renton - barrister at GCC (20 May, 25 May)
Marc Willers - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Stephen Clark - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Liz Davies - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Cathryn McGahey - Bar Council Ethics Committee's VC (24 May)
Tom Wainwright - Barrister at GCC (24 May)
Colin Cook - Head clerk at GCC (24 May)
David de Menezes - GCC, Head of Marketing (25 May)
Kathryn Cronin - barrister at GCC (25 May)
Michelle Brewer - barrister at GCC at time, now left and a judge (26 May)
Stephanie Harrison - joint head of chambers (26 May)
Closing arguments for AB, GCC, and SW (20 June)

Allison Bailey's

Witness Statement

allisonbailey.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/Witness-Statement-of-Allison-Bailey.pdf

Supplementary Statement

allisonbailey.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/C-Supplementary-Witness-Statement.pdf

Closing Statement

allisonbailey.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/CLOSING-SUBMISSIONS-FINAL.pdf

OP posts:
Thread gallery
21
notonmynellee · 01/08/2022 11:42

There is a very real risk that these so called activists posing as "doctors" will simply spread all over the country and start doing the same again in the regional centres that NHS plans to open as replacement for Tavistock.

As far as I can tell that's exactly what will be happening, very disappointing.

LaughingPriest · 01/08/2022 16:59

LaughingPriest · 27/07/2022 15:32

Just catching up. Congrats Allison!
For anyone with any stake in SW advising any employer, this was a great outcome in terms of forcing them to say that essentially SW's advice should be taken with a very hard subjective look indeed....

Off to read the judgement/summary. Already enjoyed the bits about the bundle which sounds AMAZING....!

I thinking winning against SW would've been a very high bar. The fact they said 'I trust you'll do the right thing re the terfy barrister' makes it seem obvious they were influencing GCC, but I guess they'd need to have some kind of written evidence that they actually said 'I trust you'll do the right thing, ^otherwise we'll do X, Y and Z to you' - even though the latter was surely implied - to have won that one.

Just going back to this, as I've since seen a thread on Twitter by Levins Law. I don't think they're arguing the ET got it wrong, but expands a bit on what can constitute 'inducement'.

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1553010994947018754.html

--
Some thoughts on the failure of Allison Bailey's complaint against Stonewall, sparked by @Broonjunior's thoughtful tweets on the subject yesterday.

The complaint was made under s. 111 of the Equality Act 2010, which provides that it is unlawful for a person (SW) to instruct, cause, or induce another person (GCC) to discriminate against a third person (AB).

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/111
By s. 111(8), causing or inducing includes attempting to cause or induce.

There were several ways in which SW was said to have contravened s. 111, but the strongest argument for AB centres on the complaint email sent by SW’s Head of Trans Inclusion, Kirrin Medcalf, on 31 October 2019. The email included this passage:
"For GCC to continue associating with a barrister who is actively campaigning for a reduction in trans rights and equality, while also specifically targeting our staff with transphobic abuse on a public platform, puts us in a difficult position with yourselves: the safety of our staff and community will always be Stonewall's first priority."

4/21
GCC was at the time an SW Diversity Champion, though the ET did not find that KM must have been aware of this when he sent the complaint email.

The email was not a frolic of KM’s own. It was drafted on 28 October but not sent until 31 October, and KM accepted in evidence that it was inconceivable he would have sent it in SW’s name after only 5 weeks in the job without the authority of someone more senior.

SW appears to have accepted that the complaint email should be treated as its email pursuant to s. 109.
www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/109

When KM was asked why he had sent this email, one of his explanations was that he was concerned for the safety of trans people who might visit GCC in the future. That explanation was disbelieved by the ET, which described KM’s reasons as ‘obscure’. [screenshot of para 368 of judgement].

Ultimately, however, the ET found that the email was simply a protest and fell short of even an attempt to induce. In reaching that conclusion, it attached weight to the facts that (a) SW did not follow up on the complaint...

...(b) SW’s internal view was that it could not cancel GCC’s Diversity Champions status, and (c) the causal effect on GCC was relatively minor.
10/21
There is very little case law on s. 111 besides the case cited in the judgment, NHS Trust Development Authority v Saiger. Saiger is a messy case – much of the EAT’s time was taken up with procedural issues and the adequacy of the ET’s reasoning.

www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKEAT/2017/0167_15_1707.html

Insofar as the judgment does address the correct interpretation of s. 111, it does so in negative terms.
Saiger tells us that for a party to have contributed to and played a material role in a discriminatory decision does not in itself amount to a breach of s. 111.
[screenshot of para 118 of Saiger judgement].

Consider for a moment an EAT case concerning the predecessor provision under the Race Relations Act 1976, CRE v The Imperial Society of Teachers of Dancing (not referred to in Saiger).

The facts of the case were that R was looking for someone to work in their office. They called a local school and asked if they had anyone suitable, but said that the school shouldn’t send a BAME person because R had no other BAME employees and they would feel out of place.

The tribunal held that this was a mere request and therefore not an inducement, primarily because no ‘stick or carrot’ was utilised by R. The EAT disagreed, saying:
[screenshot of judgement saying [...]'we do not consider the word 'induce' in s.31 can be so limited. There may be cases where inducement involves the offer of some benefit or the threat of some detriment, but in their ordinary meaning the words 'to induce' mean 'to persuade or to prevail upon or to bring about'. [...] We see no reason to construe the word narrowly or in a restricted sense."]

The EHRC’s Code of Practice, which courts and ETs are obliged to take into account, states that ‘an inducement may amount to no more than persuasion and need not involve a benefit or loss.’
[Screenshot saying "An inducement may amount to no more than persuasion and need not involve a benefit or loss. Nor does the inducement have to be applied directly: it may be indirect. It is enough if it is applied in such a way that the other person is likely to come to know about the inducement."]

The complaint email was, at minimum, an attempt to persuade GCC to expel AB because of her protected GC beliefs. Medcalf himself said that he was writing with ‘his advocacy hat on’.
[Screenshot of para 369 of AB judgement]

It did not matter that there was no stick (i.e. no threat to cancel SW’s Diversity Champion status). Since we are dealing with an attempt, it did not matter that the complaint email was not particularly potent in causal terms.

The control mechanism that Parliament chose in the EqA was that the person instructing, causing or inducing must be in a position to unlawfully discriminate against the person they are seeking to influence.

AB’s argument that SW was in such a position wrt GCC by virtue of providing services to GCC seems to have been at least tacitly accepted by the ET.

It might be said this sets the bar too low – that a relatively minor service provider role should not be the point on which SW's liability turns. The way to address that would be to amend the EqA rather than reading ‘attempting to induce’ in an unduly narrow way.

Datun · 01/08/2022 22:28

Although they call Kirrin he and him, they appear to think that Kirrin is a transwoman. Because they talk about transwomen's access to female toilets in the context of him saying he felt unsafe coming for a meeting.

Redshoeblueshoe · 01/08/2022 22:54

I think Stonewall were playing the long game when they employed Kirrin

Emotionalsupportviper · 02/08/2022 07:38

Datun · 01/08/2022 22:28

Although they call Kirrin he and him, they appear to think that Kirrin is a transwoman. Because they talk about transwomen's access to female toilets in the context of him saying he felt unsafe coming for a meeting.

Really? I thought Kirrin was a transman?

I'll have to have a little google and see.

Emotionalsupportviper · 02/08/2022 07:53

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 02/08/2022 07:55

Emotionalsupportviper · 02/08/2022 07:38

Really? I thought Kirrin was a transman?

I'll have to have a little google and see.

Kirrin is a transman although I don't recall if NB pronouns are in use.

LaughingPriest · 02/08/2022 11:06

Datun · 01/08/2022 22:28

Although they call Kirrin he and him, they appear to think that Kirrin is a transwoman. Because they talk about transwomen's access to female toilets in the context of him saying he felt unsafe coming for a meeting.

Sorry I think you're reading it wrong (if you mean para 368 of the judgement). They are explaining what KM is relaying about why 'staff safety' is important to KM. Obviously only transwomen get mentioned, because they're the most important...

Datun · 02/08/2022 12:33

LaughingPriest · 02/08/2022 11:06

Sorry I think you're reading it wrong (if you mean para 368 of the judgement). They are explaining what KM is relaying about why 'staff safety' is important to KM. Obviously only transwomen get mentioned, because they're the most important...

It just reads so weirdly. Kirrin is so concerned about Kirrin's own safety (not just staff) that any Stonewall identifiers are left at home and they arrive at Chambers with a 'cis male' colleague to avoid challenge, and then it goes on about why transwomen are challenged in female toilets. and talks about the hostility coming from natal women. Not natal men to transmen like Kirrin.

Kirrin's email was never responded to, and the ET goes on to say they think it's implausible that Kirrin wanted to get an answer about accessing female toilets. When why the hell would they even consider that? Kirrin identifies wholeheartedly as male. Kirrin can't possibly want to access female toilets.

When talking of Kirrin :

"He himself is trans. Trans women are apprehensive of being challenged in a hostile way by natal women".

It's almost as if they think kirrin is a transwoman and no-one is noticing that they're all misgendering.

Although LaughingPriest, I can well believe how, despite the context being about a transman, all the examples are about a transwoman.

I mean, most people can comprehend, in a heartbeat, the safety aspects of women who identify as men using male toilets. But you'd hardly be able to use that as an example of risk to someone who has consumed the ideology so comprehensively, despite their female sex.

it's the obscuring nature of talking about natal males (TW) being hostilely challenged by women, in the context of an actual woman (TM) who fears for their own safety, but not, it would appear, from 'hostile males.'

It's the pretence that it's men who are in danger from women, rather than the other way round, using a biological woman as the potential victim of that danger.

I may be reading it wrong. But to me, it reads as a massive head fuck.

Allison Bailey v Stonewall - Employment Tribunal hearing Thread 18
Allison Bailey v Stonewall - Employment Tribunal hearing Thread 18
LaughingPriest · 02/08/2022 13:05

I agree it reads weirdly. It makes more sense if you put 'He himself is trans.' in brackets. It's partly:


  • judgment language

  • the thread of KM's argument is garbled and all over the place ("It is not clear from his email) but it's supposedly about the safety of staff - KM is thinking purely of others who ID as women.

  • trying to unpick trans language to work out who is male and female and who is at more risk from whom and what 'violence' might mean etc.

  • the assertions that a male person is at risk of violence from a female person or anyone identifying as 'woman', which are at odds with what most people have experienced.


I think the judge is just trying to set out the thread of KM's argument, and the reason it reads weirdly is because it is not a very convincing argument. But I don't get the impression they think KM is a transwoman.

I mean, even arriving with a 'cis male' person - why? Do they think there is something inherently physically safe or threatening about having a male body? But "bodies are just bodies, not male or female" - which they clearly don't believe, if they are specifying a cis male for a particular reason to do with safety.

Again, and again, and again - it's the dishonesty that shines through.

chilling19 · 04/08/2022 09:14

Hi all

We get a shout out from Ben Cooper!

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/59e8be26-131d-11ed-b5dc-213f5c972cc4?shareToken=dbf0069c598a5048f7a82d18b3b2203d

TeenDivided · 04/08/2022 09:18

chilling19 · 04/08/2022 09:14

Love this bit: Grin

What law would you enact?
Automatic costs penalties for shoddy court bundles.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 04/08/2022 09:21

chilling19 · 04/08/2022 09:14

That was nicely light-hearted and I accept it at such.

I do confess to a flash of, "We crowdfunded for it and the outcome really matters to us, so maybe put away the stereotyped view of a parenting forum, eh".

BIWI · 04/08/2022 09:23

That's brilliant Grin

IcakethereforeIam · 04/08/2022 09:36

Just waiting now for the RSPB to run an article on wren Cooper.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 04/08/2022 09:50

IcakethereforeIam · 04/08/2022 09:36

Just waiting now for the RSPB to run an article on wren Cooper.

Yes, I do feel that I made some timely, brief, yet powerful interventions.

I always knew just the right note to strike at the vital moment.

Has the offer of a tour and my own training school for support avians gone to my head? Well, I certainly expect a nicer class of meal worms these days and I expect Ben to change the water in my dish on a more regular basis.

WeBuiltCisCityOnSexistRoles · 04/08/2022 10:21

Oh I like that article, thank you for the share token! In our house, when we are faced with a tricky moral or legal dilemma, we have graduated from asking "what would Mumsnet say?" to "what would Ben Cooper say?" DH even strokes his beard in a meaningful thoughtful manner, in homage...

SummerLobelia · 04/08/2022 10:59

Shoddy court bundles!!!

Love it.

TheBiologyStupid · 04/08/2022 11:10

SummerLobelia · 04/08/2022 10:59

Shoddy court bundles!!!

Love it.

Yes - ouch!

Whirlygiggles · 04/08/2022 11:26

😂😂😂We love you Ben.

I think their needs to be a cheerleading squad of menopausal women at his next Tribunal.

Obvs the Pom Poms will be in Suffragette colours. Team mascot, the support wren.

mcduffy · 04/08/2022 16:09

Not sure this has been posted from The Times

Law firms ‘should quit Stonewall advice scheme’ after Allison Bailey ruling

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ec592cc6-134c-11ed-b7ce-9b24bf628db2?shareToken=082c95e16f19e037eae0376e5d8954eb

ReneBumsWombats · 04/08/2022 17:11

❤ Ben, Ben, he's our man! ❤

Emotionalsupportviper · 04/08/2022 19:55

IcakethereforeIam · 04/08/2022 09:36

Just waiting now for the RSPB to run an article on wren Cooper.

😂

Love it!

Also loved the "shoddy court bundles" comment, and this:

What is the funniest thing that has happened in your job?
As a result of my work in this area, apparently becoming an object of admiration on Mumsnet [the internet parents’ forum] — improbable in many ways.

Apparently? C'mon, Ben . . . every evening as you savoured your support Twix and sipped your support dry martini, you got a warm rosy glow as your support wren chirped out the MN comments, and relayed our informed legal advice . . . 😅😅😅

IdisagreeMrHochhauser · 23/08/2022 21:07

Is there no end to his talents?

😉

Allison Bailey v Stonewall - Employment Tribunal hearing Thread 18
TheBiologyStupid · 23/08/2022 23:32

Apparently not, Idisagree - and he even lives next door to us in the guise of a modest 20-something too. (The latter caused some confusion in our household when I started singing Ben's praises and hadn't made his superpowers clear....!)

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