Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Allison Bailey v Stonewall - Employment Tribunal hearing Thread 13

1000 replies

ickky · 25/05/2022 11:31

The Tribunal started on 25th April at 10am. If you would like to view online you need to send a request for access as early as possible.

Send an email to

[email protected]

The subject heading of the email request should read

“MEDIA OR PUBLIC ACCESS REQUEST – Case number 2202172/2020 - Ms A Bailey – 25th April 2022.

Then ask for the pin for the online access.

You will be contacted with instructions on how to observe the hearing.

When joining the live tribunal please choose a non inflammatory/offensive name, everyone can see it in the chat - This is a court room, please behave accordingly.

The court chat function is there for official court purposes, not for observers, please don't use it unless you have a technical issue.

On the first page underneath where you put your screen name, select the video and mic that are not crossed out (top option), this is the courts vid and mic.
On the next page select NONE on the drop down windows for vid and mic, these are your own video and mic.

You must be muted so as to not disturb the hearing.

There is also live tweeting from

twitter.com/tribunaltweets

Abbreviations:
AB: Allison Bailey, claimant
BC: Ben Cooper QC, barrister for AB
SW = Stonewall Equality Limited (respondent 1)
IO = Ijeoma Omambala QC, senior counsel - barrister for SW
RW = Robin White junior counsel to SW - assisting IO
GC = Garden Court Chambers Limited (respondent 2) (GCC would be a better abbreviation)
AH = Andrew Hochhauser QC, senior counsel - barrister for GC
JR = Jane Russell junior counsel to GC - assisting AH
RM= Rajiv Menon QC & SH = Stephanie Harrison QC (jointly respondent 3 along with all members of GC except AB)
EJ = Employment Judge Goodman hearing the case
Panel = any one of the three panel members (EJ and two lay members)

Thread 1 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4529887-Allison-Bailey-v-Stonewall-Employment-Tribunal-hearing?

Thread 2 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4542466-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-2

Thread 3 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4545725-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-3

Thread 4 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4546945-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-4

Thread 5 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4548160-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-5

Thread 6 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4550451-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-6

Thread 7 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4551757-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-7

Thread 8 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4552521-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-8

Thread 9 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4553181-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-9

Thread 10 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4553754-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-10

Thread 11 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4555145-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-11

Thread 12 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4555687-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-12

Allison Bailey - claimant (4-9, 11-13 May)

Witnesses for the claimant:
Dr Nicola Williams - Fair Play for Women (29 April)
Dr Judith Green - A Woman's Place (29 April)
Kate Barker - LGB Alliance (3 May)
Lisa-Marie Taylor - FiLiA (4 May)

Witnesses for the respondents:

Stephen Lue - barrister for GCC (3-4 May)
Zainab Al-Farabi - ex Stonewall (10 May)
Kirrin Medcalf - head of trans inclusion Stonewall (10 May)
Leslie Thomas - barrister at GCC (13 May)
Sanjay Sood Smith - Stonewall (16 May)
Shaan Knan - LGBT consortium - on STAG (16 May)
Rajiv Menon - joint head of chambers (16-17 May)
Maya Sikand - barrister at GCC (17-18 May)
Mia Hakl-Law - HR senior for GCC (18 May)
Judy Khan - barrister at GCC (19-20 May)
Charlie Tennent - clerk at GCC (20 May)
Luke Harvey - clerk at GCC (20 May)
Louise Hooper - Barrister at GCC (20 May)
Marc Willers - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Stephen Clark - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Liz Davies - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Katherine McGahy - Bar Council Ethics Committee's VC (24 May)
Tom Wainwright - Barrister at GCC (24 May)
Colin Cook - clerk at GCC (24 May
David Renton - barrister at GCC (20 May, to concluded on 25th May)
David de Menezes - GCC, Head of Marketing

To come:

Michelle Brewer - barrister at GCC at time, now left and a judge.
Kathryn Cronin - barrister at GCC
Stephanie Harrison - joint head of chambers

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
MythicalReasonableTwitterUser · 25/05/2022 13:37

The cat from the next street has just come to offer support, or maybe nick my lunch. I'm not sure

Cats can do both at the same time

Boiledbeetle · 25/05/2022 13:38

@ifIwerenotanandroid yep! She is a cat dustbin.

malloo · 25/05/2022 13:39

GCRich · 25/05/2022 13:15

malloo · Today 13:07

'So is it just stonewall'? Boom

Really pleased to see this spelled out. Don't know how others feel but I'm a bit concerned that while all this has made GCC look bad, there hasn't been much to pin it on Stonewall's influence? Worried that they will slither out of this. But I have only seen bits of it and didn't see the Stonewall witnesses being questioned.

My take is that Stonewall don't have a duty of care to AB at all, but they have been made part of the claim because GCCs position is Stonewall's position and Stonewall affect the way lots at GCC and on twitter (fail to) think. Also if Stonewall weren't part of the claim then maybe it would be much harder to persuade Tribunal to consider Stonewall's position (and get Kirrin in the room proving the extreme stupidity and bigotry of Stonewall and their fanboys).

My take is that GCC might be found at fault, but not Stonewall... GCC are effectively landed with the whole bill on the basis that what they did was wrong. GCC could then, in theory and later on, sue Stonewall for leading them into the position that they broke the law. It would of course look bad - imagine saying "I am a barrister who trusted the organization which doesn't believe in male and female bodies - employ me, I'm really clever!"

Surely no-one can possibly think that their org. should listen to Stonewall after this and Maya?

Thanks GC Rich, that's helpful

GCRich · 25/05/2022 13:40

IDidntKnowItWasAParty · Today 13:32

It is stated in the bundle that DDM wrote to GCC Heads of Chambers stating that AB’s views were in contraditionc to GCC’s ‘human rights ethos’. (Again, note that 'women's rights' are not 'human rights', because men such as DDM do not see women as human - we are some sort of sub-human servant class).
He has to own the fact that he viewed AB's views as offensive.

How do people not get that (1) Everyone has human rights even trans people, and that (2) in addition some protected classes have special rights (morally under the EA 2010).

Women's rights are clearly based on sex (see dictionary, tens of thousands of years of human history and the EA 2010 etc etc for evidence).

Which clearly leaves trans rights as "being protected against discrimination for being trans" (which they have) and "the right to destroy women's sex based rights" (which is what happens to sex based rights when they are open to both sexes).

I mean, it's not blatantly obvious if you are thick, listen to Stonewall and don't even try to think things through. But if you put your mind to it it is pretty obvious.

Boiledbeetle · 25/05/2022 13:41

MythicalReasonableTwitterUser · 25/05/2022 13:37

The cat from the next street has just come to offer support, or maybe nick my lunch. I'm not sure

Cats can do both at the same time

This is also true, but my boy, and the neighbours cat are already tag teaming me.

As beautiful as she is she is definitely surplus to support requirements today. Which is a shame as she is so incredibly soft to stroke

GCRich · 25/05/2022 13:42

malloo · Today 13:39

GCRich

My take is that Stonewall....

Thanks GC Rich, that's helpful

I hope it is helpful! IANAL and I am just trying to think things through the best I can. I may be very wide of the mark!

SpindleInTheWind · 25/05/2022 13:45

Boiledbeetle · 25/05/2022 13:23

I was thinking about the ten part Netflix series last night.

I have an idea that it would be one of those flashback type series. That way we would get to follow Allison through her life story as it intersects with the current battle.

Maybe with the story being narrated by the Allison character.

Ughhh I can see it so clearly in my head as if I've already watched it.

I want a part in that - 'Mumsnetter #4' played by Frances Barber, please.

GCRich · 25/05/2022 13:45

If we're talking cats can I just say that mine exceeded himself yesterday. Next door have a secure garden for their cats - high fence with horizontal overhang to make it really secure. Their cats have never got out. Our cat got himself stuck in there... the neighbour works very very late and ended up sending one of his staff over to release our cat for us!

Chrysanthemum5 · 25/05/2022 13:47

JustWaking · 25/05/2022 13:05

Ooh, clever trap from BC! He listed 6-8 LGBT organisations and asked whether DdM was worrying about them wrt AB's tweets. DdM denied it - worrying about not showing too strong a position on LGBT - but in doing that ended up admitting that he was only worrying about Stonewall - which strengthens the case against Stonewall.

I haven't been able to watch much of this, but it's quite amazing.

Poor IO will now have to question DdM in cross to try to come back from this. Or maybe not stonewalls team don't seem to be doing much for their fee

User237845 · 25/05/2022 13:48

Did we establish that Michelle Brewer is first thing tomorrow? I need to arrange some work at office for the best time!

WinterTrees · 25/05/2022 13:48

Thanks to DdM's inability to remember much my pelvic floor is already more springy than it was at 9 o'clock this morning.

I'm hoping this afternoon's witness was a good friend of Allison's who was very busy when all this kicked off and had to do a lot of travelling.

IdisagreeMrHochhauser · 25/05/2022 13:49

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 25/05/2022 13:29

I missed this - why was Alice S. writing to Dave Renton in particular?

Yes they were at university together and (although it was apparently a long time ago) they've stayed in touch since. DR is also separately friends with her father. We had quite the history of how they are all family friends. I was half expecting to hear that they all go swimming together.

SpindleInTheWind · 25/05/2022 13:49

Boiledbeetle · 25/05/2022 13:29

Anybody need a support cat for the afternoon session? The cat from the next street has just come to offer support, or maybe nick my lunch. I'm not sure

I've got that tray. Solidarity.

And yes, I need a support cat.

Original poster
ickky · 25/05/2022 13:50

SettingsO · 25/05/2022 13:28

The e mail from Alice Sullivan is fab. Apologies of its already been posted.

Sent: 30 October 2019 11:36
To: David Renton
Subject: Allison Bailey
Dear Dave,
I’m writing to protest at the treatment of your colleague, Allison Bailey, by Garden Court chambers.
Allison is a lesbian who defends the rights of gay people to define themselves as same-sex attracted. For this, she has been subjected to a co-ordinated campaign of abuse. As you must know, Garden Court have responded by subjecting her to an investigation. Campaigns of vexatious complaints to employers are a familiar tool of transactivists. The people they target are overwhelmingly women and disproportionately lesbian. By treating these vexatious complaints as valid, Garden Court is facilitating anti-lesbian, misogynistic and racist bullying.
Why is the reaction to individual women like Allison speaking out so vicious, so extreme? Because they must be made an example of, to silence the rest. Anyone who believes that, in a democracy, it matters that people are not in fear of losing their livelihoods for taking part in political debate, should be troubled by this. Anyone who claims to support women’s right to freedom of association and expression must speak out against these witch hunts.
All of us women who speak out in our own names are subjected to frightening abuse. I have had to report death threats to the police, and have been subject to sickening defamatory smears. I know many colleagues who have suffered far worse, and do not feel safe in their workplaces. Have you ever questioned why genderism relies so heavily on intimidation, threats and violence against women?
Those of us who continue to speak out, despite the cost, do so because we feel a responsibility to the many who have been silenced. As a professor, with security of employment, I have to speak for all the women who have told me they don’t dare to speak their own minds. The women of colour who can’t bring themselves to deal with the inevitable torrent of racialized abuse, the women in insecure employment (and this is the vast majority of younger colleagues of course) who cannot risk their jobs, the students who are terrified of being denounced if they express their views in class.
This debate has allowed men on the left to display their misogyny, their lesbophobia and even their racism towards black women, while feeling righteously progressive. It has allowed them to refuse to allow women’s voices to be heard. It has allowed them to avoid any evidence-based analysis of sex and sexism. The contempt for women that has been unleashed and exposed by the genderist movement is breath taking.
I would ask you to show solidarity with Allison. As her colleague, you have the opportunity to offer her support both privately and publicly, and to make your voice heard in her support within your chambers. This does not require you to agree with her, but simply to respect her right, and the right of women in general, to freedom of association, and participation in public debate.
Best wishes,
Alice

Great email. I panicked a bit before I saw it is already in the public domain.

OP posts:
MaudeYoung · 25/05/2022 13:50

One of the issues I am still curious about is this:

some of the tweets stated that Allison had breached equality law. GCC has lawyers who are expert in the Equality Act 2010. Why did GCC not ask those lawyers to have a look and identify exactly where Allison had breached that law?

Ditto any human rights aspect.

Surely then the GCC response could have been something like:

"We have consulted with our expert lawyers and they can find no breach of either the Equality Act or the Human Rights Act."

Job done. End of issue.

LipbalmOrKnickers · 25/05/2022 13:51

WinterTrees · 25/05/2022 13:48

Thanks to DdM's inability to remember much my pelvic floor is already more springy than it was at 9 o'clock this morning.

I'm hoping this afternoon's witness was a good friend of Allison's who was very busy when all this kicked off and had to do a lot of travelling.

Excellent work WinterTrees! 👏

Boiledbeetle · 25/05/2022 13:53

@SpindleInTheWind you'll appear as mumsnet user number 4 and Unfortunately you'll only get your hands on screen. Occasionally you may get to do an additional stroke support cat add-on.

The cat is on her way to you. She's house trained, vocal and very very very cute. She's also not mine, but meh!

Chrysanthemum5 · 25/05/2022 13:53

MaudeYoung · 25/05/2022 13:50

One of the issues I am still curious about is this:

some of the tweets stated that Allison had breached equality law. GCC has lawyers who are expert in the Equality Act 2010. Why did GCC not ask those lawyers to have a look and identify exactly where Allison had breached that law?

Ditto any human rights aspect.

Surely then the GCC response could have been something like:

"We have consulted with our expert lawyers and they can find no breach of either the Equality Act or the Human Rights Act."

Job done. End of issue.

Well they say they consulted with experts but declined to say who those experts were - just that they had agreed with GCC

TheBiologyStupid · 25/05/2022 13:54

ifIwerenotanandroid · 25/05/2022 12:54

I've got rid of the Beethoven, still can't find the Doors. Have I slipped into a coma & I'm dreaming all this?

I've got Jim Morrison singing "TA Woman" in my head now... (It's not an improvement on the original.)

Signalbox · 25/05/2022 13:54

My take is that GCC might be found at fault, but not Stonewall... GCC are effectively landed with the whole bill on the basis that what they did was wrong. GCC could then, in theory and later on, sue Stonewall for leading them into the position that they broke the law. It would of course look bad - imagine saying "I am a barrister who trusted the organization which doesn't believe in male and female bodies - employ me, I'm really clever!"

Why would Stonewall not be found at fault? They are the 2nd respondent. AB's case is that they caused harm by...

instructing, causing or inducing contraventions under EqA10, s111.

Emotionalsupportviper · 25/05/2022 13:55

ifIwerenotanandroid · 25/05/2022 13:07

Never mention Captain Pugwash - the theme tune is an absolute earworm.

Diddle-di-dit, diddle-di--dit, di-dit-di-dit-di-dit-di-dit

See what you've started?

Show quote history

This happened to me, too!

😬😬😬

SettingsO · 25/05/2022 13:56

For anyone who works in a university - Alice Sullivan has also co written an interesting article on gender ideology and academic freedom. I have included it in my response to our staff opinion survey to explain why I have ticked the 'anxious' box. onlinelibrary.wiley.com/share/GMNRJTZZSXQYTQXJ2UVP?target=10.1111/1467-9752.12549

MythicalReasonableTwitterUser · 25/05/2022 13:58

some of the tweets stated that Allison had breached equality law. GCC has lawyers who are expert in the Equality Act 2010. Why did GCC not ask those lawyers to have a look and identify exactly where Allison had breached that law

One exchange that was memorable for me was
BC- You do have Equality Acts experts, don't you
JK- You don't understand

So maddening that TRAs even try to appropriate the friggin EA.....

ifIwerenotanandroid · 25/05/2022 13:59

WinterTrees · 25/05/2022 13:48

Thanks to DdM's inability to remember much my pelvic floor is already more springy than it was at 9 o'clock this morning.

I'm hoping this afternoon's witness was a good friend of Allison's who was very busy when all this kicked off and had to do a lot of travelling.

😂

IDidntKnowItWasAParty · 25/05/2022 14:01

Tribunal is back with a bang ! or some loud music anyway

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

Join Mumsnet Log In
This thread is not accepting new messages.