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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Maya Forstater hearing starts Monday

999 replies

MForstater · 06/03/2022 15:28

Hi all,

Thank you so much for all your support: emotional, intellectual, financial, spiritual(!) reading the Mumsnet feminism board is where this all started for me!

The case starts tomorrow.

It is all online. If you want to watch you need to email the tribunal for a log in to [email protected]

It kicks off at 10am - the first bit will be "admin" between the judges and the lawyers working out the timings, issues and any reporting restrictions Hmm.

Once that is all sorted the judge and the panel will go away to read (probably for the rest of Monday and all of Tuesday)

I will most likely give evidence Wednesday and Thursday.

@tribunaltweets will be tweeting the whole thing (assuming they get permission from the judge)

Links to papers will go up throughout the case at www.hiyamaya.net.

Any other questions I am happy to answer them (apart from the ones where I have to say "that is for the tribunal to hear"...)

I have made a spectators guide with FAQs etc here

Lots of love

Maya

OP posts:
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5
nauticant · 15/03/2022 14:11

I agree dolorsit that the arguments put forward both by BC and OD make it sound like the issue of employment is still not conclusively settled.

NecessaryScene · 15/03/2022 14:11

Listening to the cross examine of Maya by the CGD counsel and the evidence of the HR guy it seems that they are using that Maya wasn't employed and her opinions are offensive as a defence. Its almost as if they are trying to rerun the previous hearings.

Well, this is them being cross-examined. So they've got to say something.

We were wondering how they were going to switch gear from "her beliefs were unbearably offensive" in part 1 to "well, that's not why we fired her" in part 2.

He's trying to do the "well, it was her tone" thing, but BC's making it clear that there's no way she could have expressed her views without LE finding it "offensive".

CGD are just going to take this on the chin, I think. If you're LE, you belief that gender identity ideology is the approved US liberal position, are you going to go up there and say that you don't find all this stuff offensive?

He's got to toe the party line here - he needs to be able to work in the industry, in the US. Neither CGD nor LE are going to want to be seen to offer succour to transphobes.

Even if that means both CGD losing the case and the wider TRA movement suffering a major embarrassment and legal defeat.

OvaHere · 15/03/2022 14:12

@CharlieParley

I don't know. Are you implying men are going to dress up as women? I don't find that credible.

Paraphilias in serial killers are an intensely studied subject, as are paraphilias in sexual predators. Have been for decades. Empirical evidence shows that transvestism is prominently featured amongst those paraphilias.

(And that's me ignoring for now the voyeurism cases right on my doorstep where in the same month the same local court heard three different cases involving three different men dressing up as women to enter women's spaces to film women and girls undressing.)

Does this guy live on the same planet as me?

This is one of the things that really gets to me. They act like they literally just beamed down onto this planet and understand nothing about culture, history or biology.
tabbycatstripy · 15/03/2022 14:12

"Material reality" is apparently derived from Marxist philosophical theory... (according to OD).

nauticant · 15/03/2022 14:14

Nice evolution based hypothetical strawman there OD.

Pluvia · 15/03/2022 14:15

Yes, what's the Marxism about? Is that so that the US audience can roll their eyes and say MF's a commie?

And now OD building a huge straw man (Jesus rising from the dead) — and the judge intervening... Not sure that went to plan.

OvaHere · 15/03/2022 14:16

@tabbycatstripy

"Material reality" is apparently derived from Marxist philosophical theory... (according to OD).
Did Karl Marx invent the sexed human body?

This is new to me.

tabbycatstripy · 15/03/2022 14:17

I think they are just trying to make her out to be highly political and contentious. Materialism is older than Marxism.

bishophaha · 15/03/2022 14:18

Does this guy live on the same planet as me?

He's made it clear that if he's not interested in something it doesn't exist. Just what you want in an HR bod.... Hmm

nauticant · 15/03/2022 14:18

Ahh, yes, a Marxist agitator in the workplace implication.

tabbycatstripy · 15/03/2022 14:18

Luke is gone!

Here comes Amanda Glassman.

nauticant · 15/03/2022 14:18

Now it's Amanda Glassman, witness for CGD.

Mollyollydolly · 15/03/2022 14:19

Olivia couldn't be arsed with Luke.

OvaHere · 15/03/2022 14:19

I'm a little confused here because I thought 'Marxism as a boogyman' was considered a right wing talking point amongst liberal US circles?

Sophoclesthefox · 15/03/2022 14:21

Fucking hellfire, they’ve jumped forward a few hundred years from channeling a witch trial and gone full Senator Joe McCarthy now 🤣

“Are you now, or have you ever been…a marxist, Ms Forstater?

JackieWeaversZoomAc · 15/03/2022 14:21

Julie Bindel has complained in the chat about OD's typing noise 😁

OvaHere · 15/03/2022 14:21

I wonder if Luke is now lying down in a darkened room nursing a pint of gin? Grin

VestofAbsurdity · 15/03/2022 14:21

And now OD building a huge straw man (Jesus rising from the dead) — and the judge intervening... Not sure that went to plan

You what now? Can you hear the sounds of barrels being scraped?

nauticant · 15/03/2022 14:22

Amanda Glassman is American. Are we going to get more US-based identity politics?

mateysmum · 15/03/2022 14:22

Perhaps OD decided LE was a hopeless case

NecessaryScene · 15/03/2022 14:22

Amanda Glassman is American. Are we going to get more US-based identity politics?

I do hope so. But she can't possibly be as good as Luke, can she? Got to be downhill from here...

OvaHere · 15/03/2022 14:23

@mateysmum

Perhaps OD decided LE was a hopeless case
Understandable.
nauticant · 15/03/2022 14:23

AG: I would like to add the word "potential" before funders.

Oh dear, a bit of over-egging to row back from it would seem.

MoonOnASpoon · 15/03/2022 14:23

"Material reality" is apparently derived from Marxist philosophical theory... (according to OD).

I'm constantly baffled by all these attempts to portray material reality as something that was dreamed up last week, or was invented by western colonisers and no one in traditional uncorrupted society every hard to deal with it at all. Or it's a sign of bourgeois white middle-class thinking, or it seems now it can be Marx's fault Hmm

Just because philosophers have interrogated material reality doesn't mean it isn't a thing. Whether or not we can prove it linguistically doesn't change the fact that we have to live our lives by it.

How do these people get to work or go on holiday? Do they just sit on a loaf of bread and announce it's a bus? No.

OvaHere · 15/03/2022 14:24

How do these people get to work or go on holiday? Do they just sit on a loaf of bread and announce it's a bus? No.

Grin