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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Guardian comments opportunity

112 replies

LambChopsMcGee · 18/09/2018 19:16

I'm sure this has been mentioned but Zoe Williams has done a piece on John McConnell's Mumsnet chat. She mentions the trans issue in passing.

Comments are open. And one says "what is it with Mumsnet and transphobia anyway?"

I'll see if I can link...

What is it with Mumsnet and transphobia, anyway?" discussion.theguardian.com/comment-permalink/120570800

Maybe we should tell them??

OP posts:
DonnaBe · 18/09/2018 21:02

If transwomen are women, what is the definition of "woman" that fits the bill? If one can assert that X people are Y, presumably one can first define X and Y or the whole thing becomes nonsensical."

It’s literally difficult to define women and men in a way that includes everyone in the category they think they should be in. Even if you exclude trans people, it’s hard to do.

And before you start, the chromosome thing doesn’t work. A significant number of people are not XX or XY. Do you want to exclude them due to something that happened when they were an embryo?

OldCrone · 18/09/2018 21:02

corlan
I hope you didn't mind me posting your comment here. I can't see what was wrong with your comment. Looks like just facts to me. Maybe the Guardian just doesn't like anyone writing anything that looks like the truth.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 18/09/2018 21:04

It’s really depressing because the Guardian is such a prominent platform for debate.

Not on this issue it isn't. They won't allow it. It's a misogynist rag.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 18/09/2018 21:05

There are only two sexes, DonnaBe. There is no third sex.

corlan · 18/09/2018 21:06

No - thanks for posting it oldcrone.I was starting to doubt myself - wondering what I had said that was so offensive.

ShackUp · 18/09/2018 21:06

Donna

A very insignificant number of people aren't XX or XY. Incredibly tiny.

ShackUp · 18/09/2018 21:10

There's no hate, Donna, nobody is expressing hatred, just a yearning to be listened to about the endangering of women's rights/safeguarding with bad law and policy, that, as a byproduct, does the trans community no favours.

happydappy2 · 18/09/2018 21:12

For society to function we have to be able to differentiate between men & women, the fact that some trans people don’t understand that, is a real stumbling block to accepting trans people within a caring society. We know trans women exist, it’s not transphobic to say we don’t want them in women only spaces.

DonnaBe · 18/09/2018 21:14

There are only two sexes, DonnaBe. There is no third sex.

What you’re saying is that you yourself allow only 2 categories of people in relationship to sex and gender. I presume these would be male and female.

You’re perfectly free to use those categories. Can you tell me how you can decide, unambiguously, which category any particular person should be in?

Let’s leave out trans people for the purpose of this discussion.

Latinista · 18/09/2018 21:15

Interested to see it got closed for comments quite early. I was on and it seemed to be pretty lively. I suspect things may have been getting out of hand and mods struggling to keep up.

OldCrone · 18/09/2018 21:16

DonnaBe
Your sex is defined by your reproductive system, even if it is incomplete or non-functioning. This also applies to those with DSDs - all of whom are either male or female, not both or neither or some sort of third sex.

DonnaBe · 18/09/2018 21:18

Shackup

A very insignificant number of people aren't XX or XY. Incredibly tiny.

If you happened to be one of those people, I don’t think you’d find it insignificant.

How many are not XX or YY? Nobody has done a mass chromosome test.

happydappy2 · 18/09/2018 21:19

donnab how would you describe a third sex?
No reference to gender just sex.

titchy · 18/09/2018 21:19

Donna there are indeed two categories of people in relation to sex yes. Biology 101. Bucketloads of gender categories, but only two sex ones - commonly known as male and female.

speakingwoman · 18/09/2018 21:20

Hi Donna,
I’d say sex by chromosomes (save for a few intersex people)
As for gender-fill your boots! Have as many as you like!

I am more than happy to say there are 100 “genders” but “woman” isn’t one of them.

DonnaBe · 18/09/2018 21:20

oldcrone

Your sex is defined by your reproductive system, even if it is incomplete

So trans women are women then? As long as they have vaginas

titchy · 18/09/2018 21:22

Even those with chromosome disorders which means they aren't norma xx or xy can be categorised as Male or female. (That's biology 102 Wink)

NotMeOhNo · 18/09/2018 21:22

Are you saying that being intersex is linked to transgenderism, Donna?

titchy · 18/09/2018 21:23

Transwomen don't have vaginas. (That's introduction to biology.) Is a prosthetic leg a real leg?

titchy · 18/09/2018 21:24

Transwomen have Male gonads. Therefore Male.

DrizzledWombat · 18/09/2018 21:24

It’s literally difficult to define women and men in a way that includes everyone in the category they think they should be in. Even if you exclude trans people, it’s hard to do.

OldCrone seems to have made a pretty decent stab at it without too much trouble. Anyway, you didn't answer the question: how are you able to assert that transwomen are women if you can't define what a woman is? That's just logically preposterous.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 18/09/2018 21:25

DonnaBe a neovagina is not a reproductive system.

To say "Your sex is defined by your reproductive system, even if it is incomplete" means that, for instance, a man who loses his balls in an accident is still a man, or a woman who has had a hysterectomy is still a woman.

Datun · 18/09/2018 21:27

So trans women are women then? As long as they have vaginas

No transwoman has a vagina. Do you know what a vagina is?

MadgeMidgerson · 18/09/2018 21:27

is there no more to a female reproductive system than a vagina?

an interesting position

😐

Skimbleskanks · 18/09/2018 21:28

Please ignore the derailer!