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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Examples of Silencing in trans debate?

96 replies

Mamaryllis · 20/08/2018 14:38

Jonny Best is on twitter looking for specific examples of silencing that has occurred in line with Stonewall’s trans umbrella definition - is there a good thread we can link him to? If anyone has time to provide examples, he’s putting a piece together right now...
mobile.twitter.com/JonnnyBest/status/1031500713266950144

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
Charliethefeminist · 20/08/2018 18:31

The reason women are doing the stickers at all - is how else can we be heard? Broadcasters won't have us except in miniscule, heavily unbalanced opportunities. The Women and Eq Ctte didn't listen last time at all - in fact, mocked us. Facebook deletes and suspends us. Twitter shadowbans and suspends us. Academic institutions no-platform us. Organisations to which we make representations, investigate us. The police pursue us. Transactivists shout us down. What is left? Putting stickers in public places. And look at the reaction. We are not even to be allowed this tiny, tiny voice.

LangCleg · 20/08/2018 18:35

Lisa from Deptford. The thread she did. The fact that women's charities can't speak up for fear of losing funding.

Yes! The original statement from the Deptford People's Project:

"Statement from Working class community workers from Deptford. We are attending the women’s meeting at the House of Commons today. We would like to offer an explanation as to why this is necessary. See below

After many years of working at grass roots within our community we have recently been made aware of an issue that directly effects the working class and women in our area.

You must understand we are not graduate activists or or women’s rights campaigners. We are community workers and our concerns regarding changes to the GRA come from a lifetime of personal experience and having worked with some of the most marginalise people in our area.

The majority of our recent projects have been working with rough sleepers, the homeless and those that have been excluded from society. The issues they face include: unsupported/ mental health illness, sexual violence and prostitution, childhood trauma and abuse...

domestic violence, poverty, ex care system issues, addiction, prison,rehab,homelessness and austerity.

The people in our community that we represent are the most likely to access/ be placed in sex segregated services.Some have and will access all of these services.

Our local political and community organisations have been infiltrated by a group of well meaning white middle class goldsmith (uni) students. These people although well intentioned have rail roaded many vital projects by introducing identity policies and intersectional thinking. They do this without truly understanding or experiencing working class issues.

Meetings we have attended for the purpose of discussing community housing projects and women’s wellness etc have been used as a platform to re educate working class people on the new academic language expected within our organisations.

As anyone from a working class back ground will tell you, these theories and ideologies rarely translate into working class communities.

The extremely small number of transsexual (I use the old term as this has a very different meaning to the university umbrella term currently thrown about) members of the community are and have always been excepted and protected by community organisations.

We are now informed that transgender people are being routinely abused (mis gendered) and should be protected above all other marginalised groups. All that has changed is privileged students have adopted a set of gender identities that allow them to be considered marginalised.

The people we encountered were far from marginalised. In fact they were highly educated, openly classist and aggressive.

This new politics doesn’t equate in our community or for the people we support. We are dealing with working class issues with severely marginalised people and the trans lobby is a gentrification of working class social and political movements. Note the difference between trans lobby and trans people who we support.

No one will discuss our concerns regarding self id. Our local Labour Party has refused to comment or debate with the working class people.

We are attending the meeting this evening as this is only place that is willing to discuss theses issues.

When we are being verbally abused and called fascists because we are concerned about the effects of policy change on marginalised people it is a direct attack on working class women and grass roots organisations.

when sharing information about this event and attempt to shut it down be aware that you are complicit in the silencing of not only women but working class people who have not afforded the privileged of a safe space or university education. Thank you x"

Here is the subsequent interview with Feminist Current:

www.feministcurrent.com/2018/03/23/leftist-women-uk-refuse-accept-labours-attempts-silence-critiques-gender-identity/

BraveAndStunning · 20/08/2018 18:37

That Girl from Mars account repeatedly doxxes women. Spends all day on here and screenshotting onto twitter. Frequent exchanges with the Terfblocker charmer then fizzes themself to a froth of terf-hate and conspiracy theories. The cartoon cocks have been literal napalm. Then complains about their mental health. Go outside sometime! Read a book. Take a bath. Stop taking selfies. Selfies are the source of a great deal of unhappiness.

Charliethefeminist · 20/08/2018 18:38

Thank you Lang.

Charliethefeminist · 20/08/2018 18:38

The petition to get transgender trend out of schools.

DuckingGoodPJs · 20/08/2018 18:39

All that has changed is privileged students have adopted a set of gender identities that allow them to be considered marginalised.

Amazing when someone relatively new, just gets it straight out of the gate.

BreakWindandFire · 20/08/2018 19:06

TRAs threatening to commercially damage and picket any venues which host (non-feminism related) charity events run by Venice Allen. She coordinates a clothes swap for low-income families but venues are told that they will be trashed if they host her.

birdbandit · 20/08/2018 19:06

That statement from the Depford community project is exactly the sort of flyer Sticker Woman should posting.

silentcrow · 20/08/2018 19:21

This new politics doesn’t equate in our community or for the people we support. We are dealing with working class issues with severely marginalised people and the trans lobby is a gentrification of working class social and political movements. Note the difference between trans lobby and trans people who we support.

That is a seriously powerful statement. This sort of colonisation is what made me rage about that new "inclusion" post at Manchester Council - all that work with the homeless completely undermined by a cavalier attitude to safeguarding.

LangCleg · 20/08/2018 20:04

The people we encountered were far from marginalised. In fact they were highly educated, openly classist and aggressive.

This, I think, says a great deal.

Lucy deregged from Twitter shortly after posting that statement and giving the interview to Meghan Murphy at Feminist Current I linked to above. I imagine the abuse game wasn't worth the candle for her if she's busy trying to help people who are in actual need.

That Feminist Current article is excellent, by the way, and well worth clicking through to read.

Tanith · 20/08/2018 20:58

In May, TRA-supporting academics wrote an open letter to Bristol University, attempting to interfere with their disciplining of a trans student.

A fellow academic wrote a polite letter to the people who signed it, inviting them to a Woman's Place meeting to see for themselves what the meetings discussed.

One of the signatories responded aggressively, then doxxed the writer of the invitation on Twitter by posting both letters, tagging fellow TRAs and failing to blank out the name and contact details.

Charliethefeminist · 20/08/2018 22:59

I would also say it's not just women being silenced. Have you ever heard the voice of a gender critical transexual male or female or a detransitioned person on the TV or radio?

There are extremely brave foreign correspondents, aid workers and others who have spent time in very dangerous places at high risk to themselves. I doubt any one of them would be tough enough to tweet 'sex is defined by reproductive role' right now. That is invisible silencing by public shaming and bullying.

Charliethefeminist · 20/08/2018 23:04

Look at Robert Webb, trying to pluck up the courage to retweet you. Women are having to do it, and bearing the brunt of all this. When it all comes out in the wash, we will still be blamed for causing it by seeking sex equality. It's already happening. The voices who will be praised for bringing it to an end will be male voices. That's just the way it is, and God's truth I'll be glad when it's over and I don't care who gets the credit because I don't want to do this any more. I will, and I am, but bloody hell I don't want to. It's frightening.

stillathing · 20/08/2018 23:19

I'm silenced without even beginning to speak. I don't want to join twitter any more after seeing how women are treated. I am afraid to speak openly with my colleagues because I risk losing my job. I have left my political party over their treatment of women and there is now no party that represents me.

LightofaSilveryMoon · 20/08/2018 23:33

LangCleg, that is an excellent article, covering several different aspects:

www.feministcurrent.com/2018/03/23/leftist-women-uk-refuse-accept-labours-attempts-silence-critiques-gender-identity/ (The link you posted.)

Thank you.

seafret · 21/08/2018 07:48

I'm not able to find the links right now, but I just thought I would suggest the athlete who was given a hard time for objecting to trans women in athletics at the recent Olympics or one before, and was upset in interview but had to struggle to hide it.

Tanith · 21/08/2018 08:00

This happened in America a few days ago:

newsok.com/article/5604976/oklahoma-school-for-the-deaf-shut-down-thursday-after-threat

They’ve now found the person who made the threats. Reports identify him as a man.

R0wantrees · 21/08/2018 08:58

From the current thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3341561-Suspended-from-twitter

"GenderApostate your account will likely have been targetted.

Jacky Holyoake was targetted and mass TRA-Twttter reported for a long time. She wasn't the only person.

Twitter (& other social media platofrms) have been 'weaponised' by some, with the intention of 'no debate' and silencing dissenting voices.
Woman's PLace UK recent statement:
womansplaceuk.org/social-media-attacks-on-wpuk/

There are many threads and discussions about this including:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3330245-Abuse-of-GC-women-on-twitter-be-warned-graphic-disturbing

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3260432-The-Shame-of-Twitter

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3256163-Anyone-else-having-trouble-with-Twitter

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3262686-BBC-Report-Twitter-bans-women-against-trans-ideology-say-feminists

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/feminist_activism/3227184-Banned-suspended-by-Twitter-Receipts-here

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3290372-What-Gets-a-Woman-Suspended-From-Twitter

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3128427-Feminists-banned-for-hate-speech-on-twitter

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3262965-Good-article-today-BBC-on-the-twitter-ban-on-womens-free-speech-on-trans-issues
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3262686-BBC-Report-Twitter-bans-women-against-trans-ideology-say-feminists

WPUK:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3312138-Womans-Place-UK-Facebook-Twitter-attack-request-to-share-statement-on-social-media

DJ Lippy:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3334595-The-thread-that-got-me-banned-from-Twitter-TRIGGER-WARNING-OFFENSIVE-CONTENT

Posie Parker:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3330503-Who-knew-in-2018-we-would-be-lead-by-unelected-tech-giants

Lisa Muggeridge:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3284251-Lisa-Muggeridge-Suspended-by-Twitter-and-Quoting-her-breaches-MN-Guidelines

Venice Allen / Dr Radfem:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3259395-best-of-twitter

Miranda Yardley, 'Why I Am Permanently Banned From Twitter And Why This Should Make You Worry'
mirandayardley.com/en/i-permanently-banned-twitter-make-worry/
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3258983-Miranda-Yardley-permanently-banned-from-Twitter
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3258453-Permanent-Ban-from-Twitter-for-Hate-Speech

Hope Lye
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3279656-Hope-Lye-suspended-from-Twitter

Mass Terf Blocks
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3200394-Calling-lawyers-and-data-protection-gurus

Attempted bullying of MN
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3241575-Mumsnet-Grass-Account

Shadowbanning & 'Quality filtering' is also now being used to hush women up, Rose of Dawn has recently discovered she is shadow banned.
Many are indicating in their twitter names (red crosses etc)"

R0wantrees · 21/08/2018 09:02

Complaint against David Davies for hosting 'We Need to Talk' in Westminster by LibDem Cllr Zoe O'Connell:
"Andrew Gilligan tweet
"Latest bullying transgender complaint (against David Davies MP over We Need to Talk meeting) has been swiftly rejected by parliamentary standards commissioner"

Link to doc embedded:
www.parliament.uk/documents/pcfs/not-upheld/davidtcdaviesnotupheld.pdf

(extract)
'Letter from the Commissioner to Cllr Zoë O'Connell, 23 May 2018
I wrote to you on 27 March 2018 to say that I was beginning an inquiry into your allegation of a breach of House of Commons rules by Mr David TC Davies MP. I am writing now to let you know the outcome.
I have corresponded with Mr Davies and I have consulted the Serjeant at Arms.
Having considered carefully the evidence I have obtained, I do not uphold the allegation.'

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3263172-Andrew-Gilligan-Latest-bullying-transgender-complaint-swiftly-rejected-by-parliamentary-standards-committee

R0wantrees · 21/08/2018 09:05

John Bercow / Pink News:
OP junebedford82 wrote,
"Just saw this on P*k News
www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/07/04/speaker-john-bercow-tells-pinknews-reception-2/

Bercow
"There’s still a huge challenge in terms of the trans community. We need to up our level of standing up for the rights of trans people. We shouldn’t allow people to peddle anti-trans messages under the guise of trying to protect other people’s rights. We shouldn’t let people muddy the waters in that way. It’s just not people screaming abuse in the streets – it’s sometimes people who have access to the media and can write articulately, and are using their position to push messages which I think result in very considerable and dangerous displays of hostility to trans people. Up with that we must not put, as Churchill might have said.”

What on earth is he doing? How can a supposedly-independent speaker intervene on something in the middle of the government consultation?"

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3298016-John-Bercows-rant-about-Gender-Critical-women

sociopathsunited · 21/08/2018 09:11

Why is someone having to ask for examples of how women are being silenced? Open your fucking eyes. Its right there, in front of us all.

R0wantrees · 21/08/2018 09:13

India Willoughby / Pink News about Mumsnet:

"Cabinet minister Lis Truss has now tweeted her support for Mumsnet, despite the site hosting rampant transphobia. She needs hauling in to the PM’s office – and Theresa May needs to keep her promise about protecting trans people.

And where’s Amber Rudd, the government’s Women’s and Equalities Minister, in this? What has she got to say about about this persecution of a tiny group of women? The silence is deafening.

I defy anyone to visit Mumsnet right now, look up transgender, and tell me that the vicious and mocking threads about trans people would be allowed about any other demographic. It’s the stuff of pitchforks and lanterns. The same rhetoric about race, religion on sexuality would lead to prosecutions and official condemnation.

Mumsnet CEO Justine Roberts squeals that trans people highlighting the content – including threads which out trans people – to some of the site’s main advertisers is out of order. She describes it as an attack on free speech. This might be a shock to Justine, but trans people have free speech, too."

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3230887-IW-compares-MN-to-the-National-Front-and-Nuremberg-Rally

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3238065-Mumsnet-is-like-a-Nuremberg-Rally-Its-very-scary-India-Willoughby

From Twitter:

"India Willoughby - I’ll be on talkRADIO tomorrow morning after 9am explaining why trans campaigners are totally RIGHT to lobby big advertisers not to buy space on Mumsnet. Tomorrow, after 9 #TalkRadio #Mumsnet"

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3223362-Ooh-step-back-India-Willoughby-is-going-to-penetrate-the-Mumsnet-debate

MingeUterusMingeMingeYoni · 21/08/2018 09:13

What was the Manchester City Council inclusion post?

R0wantrees · 21/08/2018 09:16

Justine Roberts
"The founder of Mumsnet says transgender “thought police” are pressurising advertisers to withdraw from Britain’s most popular parenting website because it allows the discussion of trans topics.

Justine Roberts said she had been approached by three significant advertisers who had been threatened by trans groups. (continues)
“What’s worrying to me is the thought-police action around speech and the shutting down of the right to be able to disagree and immediately labelling it as transphobic,” Roberts said.

The threats are the latest move in a campaign by transgender activists to inhibit discussion of potential legal changes that would allow people born male to self-identify as women."

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/mumsnet-founder-justine-roberts-transgender-activists-try-to-curb-free-speech-on-site-z3sr3nf6q?shareToken=b2eb62822dd26aecc0f88653978ed23a

Mumsnet response:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3222471-AIBU-to-be-extremely-proud-of-Justine-Roberts-Mumsnet-right-now