Disabled Toilets We Fought Hard For Are Now Gender Neutral’ Say Campaigners

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Have we had this yet?

extra.ie/2018/04/15/news/irish-news/disabled-toilets-gender-neutral
So many questions raised.

Can't be true.

THERE ARE NO PROBLEMS IN IRELAND.

I had wondered when someone would pick up on this. Spaces for those with disabilities were very hard fought for, and I think it is wrong that they should just become spaces for any "oppressed minority". TRAs are very effective at campaigning, and one of the things they should be campaigning for is their own spaces, suited to their own unique needs. Not to be using spaces designated for disabled people (or women!)

I wondered about this - hardly seems fair

If trans women shouldn’t be using the toilets that best fit their gender, and male loos are not safe for them. What alternative do they have?

Perhaps there should be a campaign for a trans space, just like women had to fight for women's spaces and disabled people had to fight for disabled spaces.

Maybe, but I believe the trans community could be as small as 20,000 people, those who have undertaken some steps to transition (1 in 5000). As a society is beneficial to create spaces for such a group?

If male spaces are not safe, how does it then follow that female spaces with men in them are? It is quite the conundrum.

I suppose it all depends on if you consider the 20,000 who transition the risk or those who identify as transgender and don’t.

In relation to the OP, as much as it isn’t ideal, disabled loos offer a solution of sorts.

If male spaces are not safe, how does it then follow that female spaces with men in them are? It is quite the conundrum.

Isn’t it just.

The disabled loos are hard fought and hard won. I would back and fight trans people in getting their own spaces where appropriate.

Disabled toilets are generally very poorly equipped without adequate changing facilities for severely disabled larger children and adults, or hoists etc. It’s really unacceptable to make them even less available due to use by the able-bodied. I don’t think one group’s needs should suddenly reduce capacity for another (arguably more vulnerable) group. The answer presumably is more individual unisex facilities of the type they have in places like Costas though those are usually so filthy I can’t imagine anyone actively chooses to use them

Fair enough, I just find it hard to justify the expense of all that for such a small minority and I’m sure businesses would agree. After all potentially these facilities would be used by one or two people if that.

Why not turn all men's toilets into gender neutral enclosed cubicles?

"Nothing About Us Without Us"

Disability rights groups are pretty formidable, and although there is still a lot more to be achieved, disability activism has made huge steps for disabled people's participation, access and choice in the last thirty years.

It's incredibly unfair that disabled toilets are used in this way, although so far I've only heard TRAs complaining about using toilets intended for disabled people as though it's an insult, when in fact it's disabled people's rights which are being taken away. I'm very glad that this is being talked about.

Disabled people's toilets are not a spare or third place.

Why not turn all men's toilets into gender neutral enclosed cubicles?

Seems a sensible, and relatively cheap solution. Women and disabled people keep their hard won toilets, and transpeople get a solution that doesn't disadvantage them.

That’s a fair and valid point, I get that, I’m also aware that many businesses are deeply concerned over the potential change in the EA of gender reassignment to gender identity and the risk to footfall (and profits).

It’s a tough one, that’s for sure.

Is there anywhere where it is facilities previously reserved for men that have been converted for trans people to use? I think we know the answer to that, don't we?

Some transgender advocates consider constant affirmation necessary for the transgender identified persons mental health. Using the women's loo is for affirmation purposes.

Trans men use male facilities, and you never hear of issues with that.

Is this an issue now because of the potential change to the EA regrading gender identity? Presumably trans women have been using ladies toilets for years now already. If that’s the case either that should be dropped or the sex provisions need reviewing too.

yeah well, what about women's and girls mental health?

many women would be frightened by some one who looks male in there. there are more women than men who have transitioned, surely the mental health of the majority group needs to be taken into account, though it appears not.

Maria Miller (Equalities Minister) puts the number of transgender people at 650,000 Bron. It is not a tiny minority.

Transsexual people who have a Gender Recognition Certificate number about 4500 people in this country if I remember correctly. So they are less than 1% of the transgender community as it currently stands. That's a tiny minority.

I think we should campaign for ALL toilet cubicles to have floor to ceiling walls between. Theres nothing annoys me more at work on a daily basis (other than running out of mik. And, you know, having to be there) than sat on the toolet knowing someone is sat next to me, not a meter away, while im trying to have a silent and dignified poo.

Most transgender identified females say they use female restroom facilities for their safety. That is one of the reasons the rules say transgender identified persons can use whichever they wish.

*Why not turn all men's toilets into gender neutral enclosed cubicles?

Seems a sensible, and relatively cheap solution. Women and disabled people keep their hard won toilets, and transpeople get a solution that doesn't disadvantage them.*

This is THE solution. The only solution to this problem. It's the urinal space that is threatening to transwomen, and I completely understand why they don't want to walk in there.

But the thing is, it's the biological men who are in charge, and they can't bear the thought of actually having to occasionally wait a few minutes to use the loo. So women and girls are thrown under the bus, and so are disabled people,, but that's OK as long and blokes don't have to queue.

650,000 who are transgender compared with 20,000 who have transitioned, of which only 4500 have GRCs.

I think it needs to be clear in the EA or something else that being trans in itself does not give anyone additional rights, it should be the act of changing ones sex that does. More specifically only once the transition process itself has begun (proposing to change isn’t good enough in my opinion).

Using the women's loo for affirmation purposes doesn't trump the safety of women and girls and the rights of disabled people to have a loo that isn't in constant use by everyone else.