Disabled Toilets We Fought Hard For Are Now Gender Neutral’ Say Campaigners

[CircleSquareCircleSquare]

Have we had this yet?

extra.ie/2018/04/15/news/irish-news/disabled-toilets-gender-neutral
So many questions raised.

But what does "transition" mean, Bron?

Hormones? Surgery? Wearing a dress on a Friday night? Who gets to decide what transition means?

Very few people who identify as transgender will have, or want, surgery. How do you "transition" if you identify as non-binary or gender fluid anyways?

That's the problem. Words like transgender, woman, man, sex, transition can mean anything in this brave new world.

Men are going to have to learn to be inclusive and less violent. Make mens spaces gender neutral.

But the thing is, it's the biological men who are in charge, and they can't bear the thought of actually having to occasionally wait a few minutes to use the loo. So women and girls are thrown under the bus, and so are disabled people,, but that's OK as long and blokes don't have to queue.

This is like a bell going off in my head! You are SO right.

@blackteasplease Easy, have three rooms for loos: a women and girls cubicle farm, a unisex cubicle farm, and a urinal room with maybe one cubicle in it for the guy who nips in just for a pee and realises he needs a dump too. Dads with kids can use the unisex without worrying about their daughters seeing penises and unaccompanied men can use the urinal room for speed.

Single self-contained toilets should all be unisex, no reason not to be, but they are slower than cubicle farms.

Why 'should' toilets be unisex? It makes no sense at all. They are segregated for many reasons.
Over 600 women miscarry every day in the UK and sometimes that happens in a public toilet.

Single self-contained toilets should all be unisex

To be clear, I'm not talking about the specially-equipped ones intended for wheelchair users. Those should be for people who have a medical reason why they need a larger space*, need the grab rails, or have a continence problem and can't queue.

• I was once puzzled by a woman who could walk unaided entering a disabled loo with her guide dog. It was only afterwards that I realised that she needed the space for the dog...

@UpstartCrow Toilets where you have the loo and sink and everything else in one little room behind a proper door, with no gaps, give total privacy. You can wash blood out of clothing without standing in an open sink area in your knickers, take a pregnancy test, wash your menstrual cup without being seen by others, and examine and bid farewell to a miscarried embryo in privacy and peace. Hence the miscarriage argument doesn't hold for the single-occupancy self-contained toilet. I concur that cubicle farms absolutely should be single-sex.

Theres a reason why toilets aren't built that way; they take up too much space and are too expensive. Its why there are so few disabled toilets.

If the door opens onto a unisex space, then a woman having a miscarriage does not have any privacy. what if she needs an ambulance?
Do I really have to spell it out to you, on a woman's forum, what having a miscarriage entails, and what you are left dealing with?

I concur that cubicle farms absolutely should be single-sex.
@upstartcrow
I should proofread before I post. "I concur that cubicle farms absolutely should have single-sex space available." The unisex cubicle farm without urinals should be alongside women-only space. That gives a no-nekkid-willy space for trans people and anyone else who feels ok in a unisex area, and single-sex options for those who want or need them.

@upstartcrow It's policy where I work to have a proportion of loos be single-sex self-contained in all new buildings, and it's not that much more expensive than cubicle farms if it's designed in from the outset.

If a woman miscarries in a self-contained toilet that opens onto a corridor, how does she have less privacy compared to a single-sex cubicle farm where the (increasingly often male) cleaner or another woman could enter at any time?

Do I really have to spell it out to you, on a woman's forum, what having a miscarriage entails, and what you are left dealing with?

I'm nulligravid so I have never encountered miscarriage. I have had surgery for endo so "fainting from pain, huge clots, and washing blood out of my skirt whilst hoping to god that none of my colleagues walk in to find me in my knickers" are experiences I'm familiar with.

I was trying to outline a scheme for three cubicle farm spaces: one for women only, so if you are pregnant or on the rag you know there are no males present; one for men only that is mostly urinals; and a third for people who are trans or just not that bothered. My idea is to give people somewhere to pee with maximum options for safety and dignity all around. If I'm on the rag, you bet I'm using the women-only loo. If I'm not, it depends how I feel that day.

I think it needs to be clear in the EA or something else that being trans in itself does not give anyone additional rights, it should be the act of changing ones sex that does. More specifically only once the transition process itself has begun (proposing to change isn’t good enough in my opinion).

In practical terms, how should we tell which people have "started the transition process"?

Well that's exactly why Dr's should be involved as they were originally.

To be fair, with a miscarriage, you are definitely better off in a sealed off unisex cubicle. Not all women are benevolent angels either and I think most women would prefer to be in a sealed off cubicle with plenty of space and a sink rather than having to share space with (albeit female) strangers. If you needed an ambulance in the ladies' loos, you would have no privacy anyway- chances are the door would be propped open and people coming to check if you were okay (including men). I have seen that when a woman fell in the ladies' and someone called for an ambulance. The on-site first aider was a man and the door to the toilets was wide open until the ambulance got there. In many countries e.g. Sweden loos are very often unisex and sealed rooms. Works really well and I doubt it takes up that much extra space anyway. Definitely the way forward.

medium.com/@norahhoney000/reasonableness-and-the-gra-a-clash-of-rights-89a707a64e33

Blog that covers this.

I agree with bd6

Wherever possible in new or refurbished buildings there should be unisex cubicles

And i would like to point out to restaurants etc that if there are unisex cubicles THERE IS NO NEED TO LABEL ONE WOMEN AND THE OTHER MEN

I haven't got an issue popping into the mans labeled individual cubicle but i have seen queues outside the womans and i have had perplexed looks when ive left (again not an issue for me but honestly!)

Unless they've only got one sanitary bin, in the one labelled Women, which often is the case. Presumably for expense reasons.

Even so assasinated

I dont have my period for that long (although it feels like it this week )

So for three weeks of the month i can use either

And i am so looking forward to when i can permanently

Point taken though....they should buy two, cheap gits

I’d just like to say thank you for allowing me here to have this discussion. I am trans and trying (not always successfully I’ll admit) to understand all sides of the argument.

I want to be in as informed place as possible when (or even if) consultations on EA/GRA reform take place.

Welcome @Bronners78

I’m glad you are hear, it’s good to have a reasonable debate on these subjects. You said in a previous post that you think people should have to take steps towards transitioning before they can be covered under the EA. This is where it gets tricky for me - what steps? Who polices that? Is it any different to the current state of affairs with the GRC (which I understand not many trans people have). How do you separate out the well-meaning trans people from the pisstakers and the predators?

I absolutely do not think all trans people are predators. I do think lots of men would use this as an opportunity to prey on women.

*here not hear bloody typos

male loos are not safe for them.

Male loos are as safe for them as for any other male. If they were genuinely concerned they would look at situations where a men's toilet was an unsafe place for men in general.

The fear they have is a cover - rather like the men who tweet how unsafe it is when "TERFs" are have a local meetup, or when Julie Bindel is being no-platformed from universities. It is all an invention, designed to intimidate and violate women, while making out that they are the victims

Why do we assume men are violent towards transwomen? Why can't transwomen use men's loos? Why can't MEN be more inclusive? Or do we just accept that they never will be, so WE have to do it?

There's probably a matter of individual preference between a sealed off cubicle and properly female only toilet. But either is fine. Just depends what is needed over all. I think I'd ideally prefer to be away from female strangers too if having miscarriage.

As to cubicles being more expensive and taking up space, they will have have to be that to protect the safety of trans people and others. Smaller price than eroding the rights of women and disabled people.

I agree with you sarky. Men must learn to be more inclusive! I think I put that somewhere but maybe not in this thread!

I noticed this in the toilets of the Tate Britain on Friday - they have male, female, and accessible toilets which had “gender neutral / all-gender” on the door (I can’t remember the exact wording). I’m all for third spaces but it crossed my mind that those with disabilities may not be too happy with this, as effectively it’s a pass for anyone, not just trans people, to use accessible bathrooms.