The Liberals response to TRAs shows why Brexit/Trump won

[cista]

At least I think so....

All this #nodebate, "transwomenarewomen", "terfblocker", "bigot", "transphobe", "penisphobe", "transistor", "lalalala! I can't hear you"...

Is quite similar to how some liberals were in the run-up to Brexit/ Trump.

"If you vote leave, you're racist."

"If you don't vote Hilary, you're a misogynist!"

"I refuse to debate with anyone that supports Trump/ Brexit"

And what happened? People voted how they wanted and the ring-wing won.

I think the problem on all counts is that the 'left' has lost the ability to debate and think critically...and I say that as someone who has always considered myself on the left. The 'left' has been taken over by university educated middle-class types seeped in postmodern indoctrination. They can't debate or even defend their policies because they're based on subjective feelings, so they have to rely on bullying tactics. It's sad really.

I dare say you're at least a bit right with this. Same during Scottish indy ref. You don't vote yes? Do you want children to die?

I remember the main objections to Brexit being organising trade deals, and customs issues.
I remember any objections to Brexit being labelled as Project Fear, while The Brexit Bus promised money for the NHS and Fargage made a poster about immigration.

After Brexit I've seen disgruntled Brexiters complain that Remainers didn't state their case forcefully enough.

So I guess it just depends who you paid attention to at the time.

Laughable.

A massive amount of money - and uncosted aid, through services such as those of Cambridge Analytica - went into funding the 'Leave' campaign. We still haven't managed to get to the bottom of it, and I doubt there is the political will to do so now. Such as we know of exceeded the guidelines - and as I said, I doubt we'll ever know the half of it.

I suspect that played a larger part than some supposed 'lack of reasoned debate' on the part of 'Remain'.

That myth has to be put to bed. I genuinely don't get it. There is something truly weird about it. It's part and parcel of the whole: 'We've had enough of experts' shit.

Expert: 'Fact, fact, fact.'

Brexiteer: 'Wah! You're being condescending!!!'

There is no 'debate' possible when that kind of narrative is being played out.

There is no debate possible when one side is lying - and will never be held accountable for lying.

As for it's similarity to the Trans debate ... what? That's just goadery, frankly. Trying to generate clicks by harnessing two volatile subjects.

I don't really agree with you, OP. The response of TRAs to feminist objections has been particularly vicious, with threats of violence and in some cases actual violence.

If you look back at the US presidential election, almost all the threats of violence, as far as I could see, were coming from Trump supporters. The attacks on Hillary Clinton were particularly nasty, with Trump supporters chanting "Lock her up" (and a lot of stuff worse than that).

With the EU campaign, the worst you could say about the Remain side was that they were condescending. You couldn't say they were threatening violence, though. I would say the Leave side gave as least as good as they got.

I don't think its anything like as simple as that.

I am a bit sick of the contortions people go through to blame Trump's win on those least likely to vote for him; ever since the day he won endless words have been written to explain how Trump's win was all the fault of the liberals/democrats/the far left/the centre left etc etc etc.
Same as how Brexit is all the fault of remainers.

Everything is interconnected and to some extent all movements affect each other but really, Trump won because enough people in enough states wanted him to. They weren't all holding their nose and voting for him because "the left" called someone a racist unfairly.

Anyone who votes for someone awful they don't like simply to piss off one particular faction on the left or the right is an idiot.

Anyone who claims to have voted Brexit because they didn't like what a remainer said about brexiteers on the internet once either has their priorities very wrong or they are being disingenuous.

And btw I voted no in the Indy ref. I did that because I thought it was the right decision, not because I found the Yes campaigners annoying.
If I had voted No because I witnessed a Yes campaigner acting like a dick head, then that would make me an idiot.

Yes, I do agree that it is a simple comparison. My main point is the lack of debate from the liberals.

I'm in the U.K., so I'm not hugely invested in the Trump debate. However, I do eel that lack of debate on both sides contributed to Trump's win.

Brexit was just a mess that needn't have happened. However, I do eel that the frequent shouts of 'racist', 'bigot' and 'uneducated' from the liberals did not help matters.

I'm not really sure what you're getting at, but in my eyes I see that some arguments these day are based squarely on fear. Although it isn't always the arguments I disagree with.

Ah, okay, a lack of liberal debate; whilst I agree there may have been an air of liberal complacency in all cases I also don't think we can downplay the unprecedented weight and impact of the opposing side in each case.

Do you not find that a bit condescending in itself though?
The idea that brexit voters were swayed so easily to vote a certain way because of"frequent shouts" from "the liberals".
There was plenty of shouting from both sides, and twats on both sides too.
Those already inclined to vote remain are going to notice bad behaviour from the brexit side more than from their own.
Those already inclined to vote leave are going to notice bad behaviour from the remain side. (Confirmation bias.)

I don't really believe that enough people to make a difference made their mind up because of a perceived slight from the other side. They may think they did, but really they had already decided and only noticed the comments that confirmed their existing pre-conceptions about "the other side". How else would you explain the fact that they were so able to ignore the unpleasantness coming from the leave side? There was far worse than shouts of "racist".

This is in part due to middle-class professionals training. Trained like soldiers in safeguarding. Robots who no longer question when safeguarding basics are not recommended.

In a narrow sense, there is an elective affinity between two aspects of Left Progressivism: (1) borders are evil, immigrants (and especially refugees) are morally superior to natives; (2) sex is an illusion, trans is morally superior to cis.

In both cases, the underlying intuition is that it's progressive to destabilize boundaries.

As George Soros says, boundaries are the problem, refugees are the solution. Likewise, binary sex is the problem, transgender is the solution. And of course Soros is one of the three billionaires bankrolling transactivism.

I don't understand your post at all Brown

Are you seriously suggesting that Trump's win and Brexit were, in part, caused by safeguarding training?
Or have you posted on he wrong thread?

I think there’s some truth in this. I have to say that, as a lifelong lefty liberal who had drunk the koolaid until about a year ago, peaking has given me a whole new respect for, and humility towards, people whose views I might previously have dismissed (on subjects like multiculturalism) as ‘nasty right wing bigotry’. I still don’t agree with them but I now know what it’s like to feel threatened and unheard and dismissed by the virtue signallers of this world.

And the Guardian's approach to reporting Muslim grooming gangs or the Cologne NY's eve sexual assaults follows a similar logic to covering transgender issues: trans and Muslims/refugees are more oppressed than women, and so it's crucial to avoid any news coverage that portrays them negatively.

This thread is turning into quite the dogwhistle for Mumsnet's Katies.

Lots of truth in this OP, although I think among voters the vote was not split left v right and there was some interesting analysis of this.

I voted Leave but could quite understand why some people would vote Remain. The favour was returned by many Remain voters but others voices I felt very demonised by.

I don't know why it's so hard to accept that people have very different life experiences and that it is perfectly reasonable that these will influence their politics and how they vote.

Actually I do understand the demonisation if it comes from someone who felt their opinion was satisfactorily informed at the time by the Guardian alone. Because look at how how impartial their reporting has been over the transgender prison hunger striker.

So, yes, the trans lobby's polarising and demonising does feel very familiar.

thecat obliges and provides a perfect example of what the OP is talking about.

When and where were Leavers 'No-platformed'?

That vast - unregulated, illegal injection of cash and services bought exposure and dissemination of the 'Leave' viewpoint - quite the opposite of 'No-Platforming'.

It bought armies of trolls to spam social media.

What it didn't, and couldn't buy was armies of experts to tell people that voting 'Leave' was an economically sound decision.

What it could buy was a well-funded campaign to discredit experts.

The illegal funding bought the ability to swamp social media, to ensure there was a well-funded, extensive and targeted marketing campaign.

That was the absolute, direct opposite of 'no-platforming'.

The analogy is utterly ridiculous.

I have said this before on here, but I also think there are parallels to be drawn between the liberal/progressive methods of opposing Brexit and their attitudes towards gender identity.

In both cases, the liberal/progressive reaction is to brand anyone who disagrees with them as thick, uneducated bigots.

If Brexit hasn't shown the liberal/progressive commentariat and campaigners that this is not the way to win the argument, I don't know what will.

Can anyone shed light as to what a "Mumsnet Katie" is?

Can anyone shed light as to what a "Mumsnet Katie" is?

Sadly not. Is it like an American "Becky"?!

Ah, I'm thinking Hopkins...

the underlying intuition is that it's progressive to destabilize boundaries.

That's interesting, because although that doesn't strike a chord with me wrt the left, it seems like a spot-on description of the new far-right agenda, where destabilization is an aim in itself.

Hence the fake "BostonAntifa" pages calling for support for trans cheerleaders, for example. There's debate about whether that mob were really a troll-factory in Putin's Russia or were US right-wingers in Oregon (and there's anyway a lot of co-operation between Russian cyberwarfare and the alt-right, eg Jack Posobiec), but they're certainly disruptivists, using trans issues to troll feminism and divide people. To fake a "left-wing" identity while doing so is a win-win for them.

Steve Bannon is very explicit that destabilization is an important part of the alt-right project.

Fake antifa Twitter account fools media on right and left
Right-wing actors appear to have taken their trolling game to another level.
thinkprogress.org/boston-antifa-russia-tweet-adb3b2ab4918/

Steve Bannon, Trump’s Top Guy, Told Me He Was ‘a Leninist’
www.thedailybeast.com/steve-bannon-trumps-top-guy-told-me-he-was-a-leninist