The Liberals response to TRAs shows why Brexit/Trump won

[cista]

At least I think so....

All this #nodebate, "transwomenarewomen", "terfblocker", "bigot", "transphobe", "penisphobe", "transistor", "lalalala! I can't hear you"...

Is quite similar to how some liberals were in the run-up to Brexit/ Trump.

"If you vote leave, you're racist."

"If you don't vote Hilary, you're a misogynist!"

"I refuse to debate with anyone that supports Trump/ Brexit"

And what happened? People voted how they wanted and the ring-wing won.

What I don't think I (or any of the sane end of the leave vote could have forseen) was Cameron immediately jumping ship rather than ensuring a smooth handover (and also having instructed his civil servants deliberately to refrain from making any contingency plans in the event of a leave vote), Trump's election and rampant protectionism the other side of the Atlantic, and May being stupid enough to call an election and leave herself at the mercy of the DUP.

That's what I don't get. It was entirely predictable that Cameron's position would be utterly untenable. It was entirely predictable that chaos would ensue. It was entirely predictable that a movement led by Farage, Johnson, Gove, Davis et al, would be disastrous and racist. People who failed to get that, to me, were not thick, no, but utterly lacked any kind of understanding of politics. And of course, leave threw us at the mercy of the rest of the world, and most people would be cautious about approaching the rest of the world - the US or China - in a desperate, cap in hand state.

Well, quite, Lang - and that's before you even get onto the vexed question of "commitology" (basically whereas in the UK, senior civil servants' decisions are scrutinised by parliamentary committees, Euro MPs don't exert such direct scrutiny - the Commission is supposedly policed by a huge series of committees staffed by representatives of members states - and in the case of most of the committees these representatives will themselves be civil servants).

Helmet - interesting you should start the list with Farage, who was not a Westminster MP, and whose party had at the time 1 MP. One thing I could be sure of voting leave was that Farage would not be in charge. I agree it was foreseeable that Cameron's position would be untenable long term - but he could and should have stuck it out for long enough to ensure some sort of orderly transition.

My feeling back in the early 1990s was very much a Lyndon Johnson "better inside the tent pissing out" feeling - but that didn't survive actually being involved in the legislative/negotiating process. I also remember (because I helped to draft some of the replacement legislation) what trade arrangements with the rest of the world looked like prior to the single market, so I know it's not impossible to have such arrangements.

This here that squishysquirmy said yesterday at 11:41

I am a bit sick of the contortions people go through to blame Trump's win on those least likely to vote for him; ever since the day he won endless words have been written to explain how Trump's win was all the fault of the liberals/democrats/the far left/the centre left etc etc etc.

Most of the people opposed to Trump didn't vote for Trump, even if they didn't support Clinton. They voted for a third party candidate. You could make the argument that the left-leaning vote got split because of this (thereby allowing Trump to win the majority of votes in the electoral college, but not the popular vote). But what I've seen over here is that the "right-on woke lefty's": 1) tend to be the ones most likely to lean toward the authoritarian, #nodebate (on anything), if-you-don't-agree-100%-with-me-on-everything-you're-the-enemy style leftist politics and 2) tended to vote third party because Clinton was a centrist, so would never vote for her anyway. They weren't really pushing anyone who wouldn't vote for Trump into voting for Trump.

I never read or heard anyone say not voting for Clinton made someone a misogynist. There was a lot of analysis of the coverage of Clinton, and the standards she was held to as opposed to male candidates. There was coverage of the misogyny aimed at her and her female supporters. Most Clinton voters, and certainly most feminists who supported her and most news coverage, bent over backwards to point out that you could disagree with, not support and not vote for Clinton based on her words and policies (as you would male politicians) and that this, of course, does not make you a misogynist.

Politics are becoming more and more polarized on both sides. The whole "if you're not for us you're against us" attitude shows up on the right and the left. Both sides view the other side as mortal enemies rather than people who you disagree with. For every "basket of deplorables," there's a popular right-wing talking head spewing "special snowflake SJW libt*rd," (etc, etc, etc) in lieu of actual debate.

The rise of the authoritarian left has it's counterpart in the rise of the alt-right.

Add to that people in the US are increasingly getting their "news" from biased sources that confirm and reinforce their worldview (as opposed to objectively reported facts), money continuing to shape politics, Russian interference and all these people trying to throw a wrench in the works with the hope that they'll end up on top in the end.

You got the makings of a perfect storm, right there.

And yes, both the left and the right do it.

Most people over here have very little understanding of the trans debate. Most people fall into a "[shrugs shoulders] 'well, live and let live'" camp and haven't really thought through all the nuances of the debate. The trans issue didn't really come up much at all during the election.

I'm not quite sure you can much compare the US election to the Brexit vote, though. They're two different things in two different countries. Or perhaps it's just my ignorance. I know a bit about the ins-and-outs of the recent presidential election over here, much less so the Brexit vote.

A massive amount of money - and uncosted aid, through services such as those of Cambridge Analytica - went into funding the 'Leave' campaign. We still haven't managed to get to the bottom of it, and I doubt there is the political will to do so now. Such as we know of exceeded the guidelines - and as I said, I doubt we'll ever know the half of it.That myth has to be put to bed. I genuinely don't get it. There is something truly weird about it. It's part and parcel of the whole: 'We've had enough of experts' shit.

I agree. Additionally with Brexit and Trump, the vast majority of people opening their mouths.... WERE saying something racist. And we were told it was our fault as we'd forgotten the white males and they must always be placated or what? We'll get what we deserve? They say the same about feminism. Ask nicely, take the crumbs or get what you deserve.

With Brexit and Trump you had the unthinking reactionary alt right. With the trans agenda you have the unthinking left. The issue with both of those is that people are agreeing to what they believe should represent them and their values

I blame the internet for deciding what we want to hear and telling us only that. I'm very much enjoying my times subscription for that reason actually. I get reasonable reporting about the trans issues and other news and utterly furious at much of what they report rape case acquittals I like a mixed bag.

Thing is, LangCleg, your sentence doesn't need the brackets – and would be better without. So:

How many people who voted Remain or Leave could say, without looking it up, how many EU institutions there are, what they are, and what the function of each is?

And yet we were all asked to vote on this.

Mind you, I can't name all the UK government institutions. Even the departments I think I do know keep merging and splitting and being renamed and having chunks hived off and called agencies (never did catch up with what that was about).

Helmet - interesting you should start the list with Farage, who was not a Westminster MP, and whose party had at the time 1 MP. One thing I could be sure of voting leave was that Farage would not be in charge.

I find it odd the lengths some leavers go to disassociate themselves from Farage. (While many others of course want him knighted). UKIP may not have been successful in Westminster - one issue parties rarely are in our system - but it was a highly influential campaigning/pressure group. They - he - won.

HairyBallTheorem I agree with you in that the reasons you gave are more sensible reasons for voting leave than many other reasons I have heard! I disagree with the conclusion you reached when you balanced up the pros and cons of leaving/remaining, but I was also quite Eurosceptic myself.
The result surprised me, not because I was a hubris-ridden, die hard supporter of the EU who lived in a remainer bubble, but because I (stupidly) thought that if I, someone who had always been critical of the EU, thought it was a bad idea than the majority of the country would too.

Many of the leave voters I know in rl (family members) did have stupid reasons for voting leave. I know what many of their reasons were, because I heard them shouted at the radio enough times. Not that that makes them stupid - there is a distinction I think between calling a person stupid and calling their decision stupid.

One thing I noticed on here a lot post vote was the stance that "you shouldn't judge people" and to do so was very, very wrong and the reason remain/Clinton lost etc.

I don't know whether this came from the left or the right first, but I disagree with it. Its taking the idea of tolerance and twisting it to mean that disagreeing with someone is "intolerant" (which resonates with #NoDebate). Making judgements on people based on sex, race, religion etc is wrong, as is making sweeping generalisations about people based on the way they voted.

But why shouldn't I judge someone on the things the say and do? If someone makes repeatedly racist statements, I am going to go ahead and form the opinion that they are racist.
If someone states that they voted leave because we don't need any trade deals and can grow everything yourself and the world will dance to our tune now and that tune will be Rule Britannia, then I will tentatively begin to believe that this person is, at best, uninformed.