FGM (female genital mutilation)

[Twogoats]

I've just been on Twitter. A lady asked a West Midlabds Police why there was so few arrests/ social service involvement in fgm cases. The police replied that education is the key to stopping fgm, not removing kids from parents. I'm para-phrasing, but you get the general idea.

I find this attitude shocking. Yes, education is the long-term goal, but short-term we need to deter parents!

I will try get a picture up.

And look, I'm not blaming the police for this. However, they clearly need a tougher stance on this issue!

I agree with you. The system is happy to prosecute, fine and jail mothers who cant afford a TV licence. That costs the taxpayer a fortune in childcare.

Well, they do have a point in that one parent being in prison, or both parents being in prison and the child in foster care will further upset a child who has already been subjected to FGM.

Any intervention, if it is to benefit the child, must take place before FGM has taken place. In that case, placing the girls in foster care would of course be useful.

I hope they are doing that.

Deterring parents is something that should be done, but I don't know whether prison sentences work. One would have to know whether being sent to prison is seen as shameful in these subcultures that have their daughters' genitals mutilated.

Clearly, if they feel as martyrs if sent to prison, that's not going to help.

You could impose hefty fines? Doesn't have to be a prison sentence.

The reaction from the police here is pathetic though. It's almost as if they don't give a flying fuck...

Not precisely true. If I suspect or have evidence of FGM at my place of work (school) it's the only situation where I must personally phone the police. Obviously I would discuss with head who is the cp lead, but then I must phone police. It's taken very seriously.

West Midlands Police have deleted their tweet, and come out with a completely different one.

twitter.com/WMPolice/status/836138962695651328

Even though, er, they have never actually prosecuted anyone.

What are the police in places like Somalia, Indonesia and Yemen doing about it? An even bigger problem there I would have thought.

It's such a difficult question and I would be interested to hear what you think the 'right' approach would be.
I worked in social care and I have dealt first hand with fgm cases.
In a situation where the child has already been subject to fgm and there are absolutely no other issues with parenting then yes, the court often decides to leave them at home. Intensive education is offered to the parents to prevent it happening with younger children but the sad reality is long term foster care is statistically more damaging in the long term.
There is also legal difficulty, to remove a child a court must be convinced they will suffer significant harm at home. If we are too late and the procedure is done and they are otherwise good parents apart from this cultural action it can be hard to persuade a judge to remove the child.
I'm not saying it's right and doesn't condone it but that is often the reality.

Of course police action is a completely separate issue, i can only really comment on family court etc

"What are the police in places like Somalia, Indonesia and Yemen doing about it? "

Supporting it?

Oh this makes me cross. It's against the law here and should absolutely be prosecuted. Educate too but there needs to be stick as well as carrot.
It's disgraceful that no one has been prosecuted

I don't support the removal of children from parents for this. Unless you do it beforehand, to prevent it happening. It IS a matter of education

I also object to the labelling of girls as 'mutilated'

What would you prefer annahi? I find it hard to think of another term that encapsulates the horrificness of what these girls have been through

Circumcision affords some respect and dignity.

It's not about capturing your horror

"Circumcision affords some respect and dignity."

what do you mean?

Annahibiscuits What? You think "Circumcision affords some respect and dignity"? I can't understand your last post at all.

justbeinreal In your experience does the intensive education work or us it just more likely to make parents conceal it more in future?

If you don't want to talk about "mutilation", the accepted alternative is "cutting" (FGC) - "circumcision" is argued to minimise the nature of the procedure, as people typically associate that with foreskin removal, which has a lesser impact on the individual.

anna I object to using terms that make something barbaric seem palatable. It's nothing to do with "my horror". It's to do with making it clear this is a procedure that should have no place in humanity.
It is not "circumcision".

How do you want to make people see that FGM is wrong if you use euphemisms?

Pretty sure the feminists who got marital rape outlawed didn't call it "slightly annoying, unwanted marital intercourse", but, you know, rape.

You say it is a matter of education, but you do not want people to call it what it is - how do you propose to change the minds of the parents in question if you call it "circumcision" and pretend it is all nice and harmless and no bigger deal than the removal of the male foreskin?

This is not going to work.

I mean a it affords more respect to the girls who have been circumcised. You can't just go telling people they are mutilated.

I am aware that cutting is another term. I know many people who have been circumcised. Many of my family members have. Calling it circumcision may 'lessen the nature' in your mind. It is the word commonly used to describe it amongst women who experience it. It doesn't 'lessen' it in anyway. It's only 'typically associated with foreskin removal' in white western culture

I never said anything about intensive education. How do you envisage intensive education?

What I have SEEN working is a long term commitment to change within communities. Promotion of alternative 'rites of passage', empowerment of women and girls to live independenlly of men, MEN campaigning alongside their sisters, refugees and community support workers

The threat of taking children away, WILL push it underground

*Refuges, not refugees

And yes, removal of girls BEFORE the event

Circumcision means the removal of the prepuce.

While cutting the clitoral prepuce is a form of FGM, and could be called 'female circumcision', if FGM was limited to that people would not be as exercised as they are.

So calling it circumcision, unless referring strictly to prepuce incision/excision/pricking, is simply incorrect.

No. It fucking doesn't

There are 3 classifications of female circumcision, which involve different degrees of the removal of the labia and clitoris

Anyway, I'm out. This is a great example of how alienating your terminology and attitudes are. And why you won't change anything