FGM (female genital mutilation)

[Twogoats]

I've just been on Twitter. A lady asked a West Midlabds Police why there was so few arrests/ social service involvement in fgm cases. The police replied that education is the key to stopping fgm, not removing kids from parents. I'm para-phrasing, but you get the general idea.

I find this attitude shocking. Yes, education is the long-term goal, but short-term we need to deter parents!

I will try get a picture up.

Yes, ChocChoc the free choice would be questionable, I agree.

I was making that analogy because of all the other free choice mutilation, also questionable.

in my opinion FGM is particularly horrific, and is child abuse.

Thank you for telling me about the book ChoChoc. That is interesting.

MaryTheCanary I read those links. The article in The Guardian about the French stance mentioned that two girls were found being taken by Eurostar to London to have it done. It is horrible to think that a private London clinic is the place to go for FGM!

Would we then see it as being mutilation, or a chosen way to remove sexuality? If mutilation, what about people electing to have operations to change their sex by surgically removing or changing their genitals in a way that is also entirely unnatural?

I would consider that mutilation, too, and question the freedom of that "choice". But then, I am also a TERF a SWERF and an overall unfun feminist.

www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/dec/02/fgm-happened-to-me-in-white-midwest-america

This is about an American christian in 1947.

I have been reading threads on MN about this over the past couple of days (two threads arising from the Call the Midwife episode and this one).

Whilst I agree that education is key (changing hearts and minds within the communities that practice FGM),I do also think that the law has a role to play, not necessarily in the punishment of the parents who have this done to their daughters, but in the prosecution and (hopefully) imprisonment of the people who actually perform FGM in the UK.

On one of the other threads, a poster said that the UK is becoming known as somewhere safe for FGM practitioners, and is becoming a destination for Europeans who want this done to their daughters.

I accept that, once the damage has been done, providing the family is otherwise loving and caring, removing the child is not the best option, and prosecuting and imprisoning the parents would add further trauma.

However, arresting, prosecuting and imprisoning the practitioners must be our aim as a society, and should be something all police forces are aiming to do. I know that, as this is such a secretive practice, this will not be an easy thing to do, but if we lock up some of the people who carry out this barbaric procedure, we will send a messsage that the UK will not tolerate FGM being carried out here.

With regards to prosecuting parents - I do think that, if a parent or parents have one child 'cut', and are warned not to get younger siblings done too, but have them 'cut' despite the strong warnings, then prosecution should be considered.

however how can anyone try and justify this in relation to sexual enjoyment when it is being done to young girls unless that body of people believe in sex with young girls as well
It's done before puberty I believe, not sure why. Some girls start puberty at 9. Historically of course the onset of menstruation indicated fertility and therefore that a girl was marriageable, I assume doing FGM at a young age is a hangover from that rather than indicative that the culture believes in sex with young girls

ISIS fighters believe 9 is fine I believe.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius

Your point is very sensible. That is what the law on abortion is. An abortionist commits a crime unless it is in the circumstances where abortion is legal. I agree with your points on prosecution although tbh it is illegal in the U.K; every one knows it is illegal so I'm not inclined to give them one chance.

Despite the link to the report of one case in US in 1947 in a white Christian family if a family with no previous cultural connection to this practice inflicted it on a daughter I'd be very surprised if they weren't prosecuted.

I come from a country that practices FGM, It is done to girls when they are young(6 or 7),not because the culture believes in sex with young girls,as some one on here assumes to be. It is done because young body heals faster. Girls mostly marry in their mid 20's,sure there are some that marry young, but no younger than 18.There are severe types,Type 3(cutting everything off and sewing it all up),and there are very mild types (to draw little blood from the hood of the clitoris),and many other types which are in between. Mothers believe they are doing the best for that child,prosecuting the parents will not happen, as children will be told not to speak about it ,otherwise they will risk being taken away. I do not believe that procedures happen in the uk, parents go for a short summer holiday abroad.As far as I know, there are no cutters in the uk. And to answer another poster who said -

(If type one is just remove the prepuce but leaves the clitoris intact, what is the point? Or does the removal of the prepuce desensitise the clitorus?

I thought the point of FGM was to make sure that the person didn't enjoy sex and was therefore not tempted to stray? The closing up of the vagina also means they cannot have sex? )

Not all types remove clitoris,even type two removes most of the hood,but the actual clitoris nerve is intact,the severe form is type 3. And The reason behind the FGM , for most would be to deter women from having sex ,tied with family pride etc. But for some that do minor procedure,like drawing blood from the clitoris ,believe that she is healthier etc.

There are of course minorities that don't practice FGM in my country of origin,those will be very religious Muslims and educated Parents who wouldn't want to carry out cultural practices.

I personally don't see it as a problem in the uk,but more so in those countries,where girls suffer with periods,and suffer more when giving birth. Most girls who grew up here in the uk,when they decide to get married,that is the time they go to see a doctor ,to open the wound,other wise sexual intercourse will be hell or almost impossible,even then they will have complications giving birth naturally. I am all for educating the parents, it is the only way it will be eradicated,specially educating the women,as it is them that made this practice to continue,it is them that push for it,even when fathers are not so keen.

JazKish thank you for explaining everything.
The point you make that educating the parents - especially the women - is the best way to change the culture, seems very true.

@JazKish - this 2014 article from the Guardian talks of cutters at work in the UK - either they already live here or families are clubbing together to bring cutters in from abroad.

@SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius

I can only speak on the Somali community , and the families that have done the FGM to the kids ,have taken the kids abroad,and they have kept it a secret. Even from close family friends,what usually happens is that kids talk to other kids and that's how we find out. Since it is an acceptable practice ,no one will ever report on those families, the communities would stick together.
So the best way is to change their way of thinking through education, which is happening at the moment in the UK, unfortunately I cannot say the same thing about back home.People are set in their ways ,my hope will be that the young generation will have a different attitude,which will be hard in a poor war torn country.

Thanks for the link, Mary

I seem to think I've read somewhere that cutters are being brought to the UK from Nigeria (which isn't somewhere I would have massively associated with FGM) and that this has risen since the financial crisis as it's more cost effective.

Jaz it's really interesting to read your posts - I have a British Sudanese friend who was taken home to be cut as a child: it was apparently really important to her mother that it was carried out in her ancestral home. (More shockingly, both her parents are doctors) I know that it's technically illegal now in Sudan - is that also the case in Somalia? There was a case last year in Egypt where a doctor was prosecuted when a girl died as a result of surgery - it's illegal there, but there was only outcry from feminist groups when the trial didn’t result in a custodial sentence.

SS involvement is a tricky one, though: what would you do if younger girls in a family had not undergone FGM? I can see it would be best for them to stay with their families - but at the same time, you'd have no guarantee you'd be able to protect them. I wonder if this is one of the reasons why it seems often all girls are done in the same trip, irrespective of age?

@hefzi

The reason a lot of girls are done at the same time is mainly cultural,It is a celebration,I remember all my cousins including the boys were circumcised on the same day,that was back home,and my mother was under a lot of pressure that day to include me,but was adamant that she would never do that to me,as she has gone through a lot of difficulties due to FGM. Families in the uk who take the kids abroad,it is usually for convenience purpose to do all the girls at once,instead of travelling for each child.

When a country in Africa says FGM is illegal, it's just on paper,that's all. From what I have been told of Sudanese culture that they do the harsher FGM, type 3.

jaz do you feel your mother did the right thing? What will you do with your own children?

I think you are being brave Jaz to write about these things here.

How brave and strong your mother was to withstand that pressure.

My mother of course did the right thing,my father was also against it,they are both educated and I am lucky ti have that.The pressure was mainly from my traditional Grand Mother,and my mother was not able to give her a direct answer -as in NO I am against FGM,but rather kept telling my Gran that the time wasn't right,and kept on postponing the event.Eventually my Gran accepted, but was not happy about it.

Jaz She did well to manage the problem with your grandmother that subtle way, by delaying indefinitely.

I wonder if any of your mother's friends with younger children were influenced by her, to do as she had done and not have their daughters cut. Bit by bit, with every brave set of parents like yours doing as they did, change may come about.

Jaz - I think your mother (and your father) are wonderful. Good for them!