Really unruly teenager!

[Lottie4545]

DD 14 is making life pretty difficult at the moment. She was well behaved, kind, polite etc till year 8 (puberty!), I used to enjoy parents evening and opening reports. Fast forward two years and things could not be more different!

She is very rude and disrespectful (stompy, eyerolling, slamming,arguing), she does no work, she won't take up a hobby, she will not conform in any way shape or form, she argues CONSTANTLY, she is very selfish and is just generally making life difficult for those around her. Now due to this behaviour she has got herself a bit of a reputation at school so they are always watching her (not surprising) so she has daily periods of isolation, detentions etc. and she just does not give a shit and in fact finds it quite amusing. She is very close to being asked to leave current school and I'm pretty despairing. She is "class clown" with attitude and doesn't involve herself in serious behaviour but the constant disruption is getting tiring for all. At home she is difficult but I'm not sure how much more difficult than your average teenager. She is lazy around the house and requires much pestering to do anything but she isn't a tearaway and will do as I've asked but after a fair bit of stomping eye rolling and speeches about how unfair everything is and she will leave if I carry on but then does it and is embarrassed by her dramatic outbursts. She likes to spend her free time gossiping with friends, going for dinner and being glued to her phone. She has a strong circle of friends and I don't think anything is happening she is worried about. She does tell me everything (sometimes to much and I wish she'd hold back a bit!).

In short anyone had a similar issue?! I have tried endless things ranging from phone removal, grounding to the more positive end of the spectrum with rewards for good behaviour. Nothing has ever made the tiniest bit of difference! I find it so frustrating watching her muck everything up so much and her not being able to see its her shes mucking up!

Have you read " Get out of my life but first can you take me and Alex to town." If not, start there! Re school, how is she doing academically? My DD clowned around at school because basically she felt she wasn't doing well at anything, and that got her some attention. Drama and an inspired teacher helped in the end.

As well as "Get out of my Life . . .", I'd really recommend 'Divas and Doorslammers' - it has some great practical suggestions for ways to deal with very difficult teens (things like micro rewards, where eg all pocket money comes in say 20p chunks for 'bits' of good behaviour).

Just purchased both from ebay thanks.DD is not academic but is quite creative but shes not even trying in those anymore!

Good luck!

She's transitioning from child to adult and needs engaging rather than controlling IYSWIM. So, rather than imposing punishments and rewards, try initiating discussions/arguments about what it means to be 'in the real world'. That means from world politics, to what an employer expects from employees (being on time and working to order), to how others see us, to why parents hate what teens wear (!!??), etc, etc. Poke her brain in other words, rather than worry about her behaviour - which sounds pretty normal.
She does sound very much like my DS (14) who is very verbal (for a boy). I can see that he is just getting to grips with how big the world is and wondering just how he fits into it - both at school and the planet! I'm trying as as "stupid" parent to provoke and console him with big ideas. He loves to show me I'm wrong, but just having that engagement kind of channels his anger and frustrations.
Not sure if any of this is clear. Why should it be, I'm floundering in the dark too.

Lottie, it sounds like she's transitioning from child to adult and needs engaging rather than controlling IYSWIM. So, rather than imposing punishments and rewards, try initiating discussions/arguments about what it means to be 'in the real world'. That means from world politics, to what an employer expects from employees (being on time and working to order), to how others see us, to why parents hate what teens wear (!!??), etc, etc. Poke her brain in other words, rather than worry about her behaviour - which sounds pretty normal.
She does sound very much like my DS (14) who is very verbal (for a boy). I can see that he is just getting to grips with how big the world is and wondering just how he fits into it - both at school and the planet! I'm trying as as "stupid" parent to provoke and console him with big ideas. He loves to show me I'm wrong, but just having that engagement kind of channels his anger and frustrations.
Not sure if any of this is clear. Why should it be, I'm floundering in the dark too.

Thank you. My concern is obviously if this behaviour is "normal" why are school threatening exclusion! School is my biggest worry, at home I expect much of the behaviour as I know most parents have similar issues at home. The issue is she does not adjust her behaviour so I for instance was a horror at home but quite angelic at school and would not have spoken to teachers how I spoke to my mum. My DD speaks to all adults who request she does anything or challenge her in the same way which is quite an aggressive tone! I am forever initiating discussions but DD just flounces off if she is not being 100% agreed with. I just can't bare the thought of her being excluded and it fills me with dread everyday!

I've met girls like that in school where I was helping.
She was playing up to be part of the "popular" group. She was a nice girl but couldn't help herself and it was easier to blame her as she was the loudest. In the end I saw others starting and her being blamed. I spoke to her and ask her if she wants to be excluded on behalf of others?

Have you spoken to school?
I would talk to every subject teacher/TA and also ask to talk to the pastoral team to see how they are manage her behaviour. Has she been partially excluded (for some lessons or whole days yet?)

Each school has their own ways to deal with this kind of behaviour and you could report back what has been said here so others can explain and/or comment.

That is my daughter you describe! She doesn't always start things but she carries on when others have stopped. Its just silly things as opposed to malicious singing, dancing, making weird noises.

I speak to school almost every day ssiiigggghhhhhhhhh she spends a large amount of time in isolation and has been banned from a couple of lessons. She has never had a fixed term exclusion as its more constant low level behaviour as opposed to big incidents sporadically. What she says happens versus what school say happens is always polar opposites so its quite hard to unpick. She feels they goad her , they think she is just a major disruption! Her behaviour plan is removal from class which of course she never goes willingly so a big scene unfolds. She is removed for pretty much anything chatting, not working fast enough, being to noisy and last weeks sneezing (which they thought was deliberate to annoy!!). I have tried to suggest other methods but they say they can't have the other students distracted from their work by keeping her in! She is on report and has been since a week after she started and has detentions most days for reasons such as not enough work in lessons , persistent talking etc.

I feel for you and her because now she is being picked up on anything where other's would get away with as a one off.

Maybe ask MN to move this thread to: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/the_staffroom

I would hope that experienced teachers who deal with similar scenarios as part of their pastoral care duties would be able to suggest something you could do.

I am assuming she has been on report? Usually staged procedure ie. Green (tutor) Yellow (head of year) Red (senior teacher). Targets and ticks 1. Stay in seat 2. Stay on task 3. No shouting out

Is she setted or mixed ability?
Is she being sent out to an isolation room, into the corridor or are on-call staff collecting her?
Low level disruption is a pain in the arse but usually dealt with in class. If she is being isolated she must be doing it to the nth degree and across the board or be answering staff back with teen bravado. (Mine argues with me that black is white but toes the line at school. Different girl there.)

How many detentions are we looking at?
How much timetable is she actually in class?
What are your consequences at home...I would be taking the phone for set time periods/ grounding each time she gets a detention/isolation period?

She is on red report and has been on report since one week after starting at school (two years ago). At previous schools there was never a detention or any negative behaviour. Although she was often described her as a real character !
She struggles academically and always has and has always been around two years below average across the board. She is in a class with similar abilities to herself and a few mixed classes. She is alone in isolation and is given things like spot the difference sheets which isn't ideal! She does do teen bravado usually when she is told to leave the class for chatting for instance she gets all "Well Annie was talking but you never spend her out and I wasn't talking to myself so why is it always just me so unfair". She often then cries in frustration and goes to the toilets. She has detentions most days but not every day about 50% for not enough work completed other 50% a mixture of forgetting equipment, chatting, calling out.
I have written about sanctions however school requested (in front of DD) that I do not sanction at home for behaviour in school as they "deal with it".
Its a tricky one as her behaviour is unacceptable I know but she has found the transition from primary to secondary very challenging and she puts on a bit of a "I don't care" attitude but she does get very upset but still does nothing to change and one she has calmed from a blow up she then put her "don't care" front back on!

Your description almost describes my DD(14) exactly. Although my daughter is constantly walking out of the house too.. Nothing seems to make her happy. The school give her an inclusion and she walks out - therefore she is excluded for 2 days. During those days she does exactly what she wants, including going out. I have spoken to the police a few times when she has decided not to come home and they have advised that I cant lock her in as I can be charged with false inprisonment. I just dont know what way to turn. Sorry I cant be any help to you x

Oh no stressedmum that must be a bloody nightmare for you. DD threatens to leave nearly everyday if I dare to ask her to take her dirty plate through, mention school etc. but thankfully (touch wood!) she hasn't left. She is quite a home girl and usually only leaves the house once a week. Are school supportive? It is very consuming isn't it I get quite anxious (which I never have before!) worrying about what will happen. Everytime my phone rings I feel a bit sick!

I feel really sick every time the phone rings.. I am worrying all the time. At the moment, everything is a battle. This morning, she refused to go to school so we ended up taking her bedroom door off its hinges! Every day is a different drama and I am living in fear of what she might do next! I cant get her to stay in at all... She seems to have hit the self destruct button and I am at a loss. Although it obviously isnt a good situation, its really helpful to know that I am not the only one having issues with my teen

Lottie4545, can I ask when she threatens to leave how do you react? At the moment I seem just to be offering to pick her up so that I know she is safe as I am so scared of her going.. I am considering just ignoring her behaviour so that she sees she isnt getting a reaction

I have ignored so far as its more a tool of manipulation rather than actually leaving. She hates leaving the house, she has friends here but won't sleep at friends, if she does I usually have to pick her up as she gets home sick. Your daughter is leaving though I'm not sure how i'd deal with that Are her friends nice? Do you know where she goes? Poor you must be bloody awful :( . Its a horrible phase (it better be a phase ;) ) I just worry what will happen if/when DD is excluded she is a bit silly but she is incredibly immature and I can't see her coping at local PRU, I think she'd be terrified and would refuse to go. DD did go through a phase of refusing school .

Yes, I am hoping it's just a phase too! Some of her friends are nice, others I dont know too well and I have a rough idea of the places she goes - mainly parks etc. I can see the school excluding her soon though as they will have had had enough of her behaviour. I hope things improve for you, it's a really tough time and like you, until she went into Year 9 my DD was doing really well at school and had great parents evenings.. Now it fills me with dread..

Lets hope . I am assured year 9 is the worst hormones and maturity wise so heres hoping thats correct!

It sounds to me like the school are inflaming the situation. They go straight to level 3 sanctions for level 1 behaviour.

They need to back off and give your DD a chance to do the right thing. So a choice - DD I need you to stop talking or go outside the room. Or a space in class dd can go and work by herself when others are talking - so she has the chance for self control in not responding or if she knows that she's not the only one she can't be blamed as she's removed herself.
The fact your dd cried with frustration shows she does care. Shows that she feel it's unfair and is frustrated with the situation the way it it.
Also if she's removed and not doing class work it's no wonder she isn't completeing enough work in school - she's expected to complete a fill academic report for half the curriculum input.

What stategies has the school out in place or professionals have they got involved? Has she been assessed for dyslexia? Has an OT seen her or an ed pysch? What proactive steps have the school put into place to find out the reason for this behaviour? Again - the crying shows she's not enjoying it and clearly she's not getting anything out of it.

I'd be reading SENDCOP guidelines. Ask for an IEP with targets and get DDs input. Ask her what she wants out of school.
If all she's had for 2 years is sanctions and being pushed away (isolation) then it will take a long time for her to build her trust in the school again - so trust them to believe her when she's chatting and there's 2 people involved. (Because she's right it won't just be her).

Tbh - in yiur situation I'd be asking your Dd outright if she'd like the chance to start again at a different school. Tell her you know she's not the person the school believe she is - you know she's better than that and would like to give her the chance to show a school and teachers the real her.

Well, she's not violent or thumping people to get into detention, those are pluses. She sounds desperately insecure, you know? Like if you could boost her self-confidence than she might stop acting up (so much).

She'll need a series of fixed term exclusions before they can justify chucking her out completely.

She has been referred to CAHMS and it is thought she has ASD traits and possibly ADHD. It is only thought as DD in true form refuses to take part in the formal assessment. They have observed her in school though on several occasions. She has had an EP report done a while ago who put millions of suggestions forward she isn't dyslexic but falls into the significant difficulties for memory (she wasn't even on the centile that was such a weakness), verbal reasoning and non verbal reasoning, comprehension and maths. So a fair amount for them to work with!
They don't "do" IEPS at her school and her behaviour fluctuates depending on the teacher, she does not do well at all for strict, old school types. I am the bain of their lives and am continually putting suggestions forward.

I have asked DD about moving and she was VERY resistant, I think this is mainly not to do with her friends rather than enjoying school. DD is also VERY VERY resistant to any support which might identify her as being "special" (her words!). So in the past they have suggested things she has outright refused, some have been to be fair pretty patronising, however some would have been beneficial but trying to make her see this is very difficult. I am always torn as I can see the picture from both sides and she does not help herself and refuses to think of the future, however their approach is inconsistent and at times is goady. She will accept anger management, which she receives but I think the other kids see that as "cool" as opposed to "special". This isn't how I view it but is very much how DD does it is all about perception.

Its a catch 22situation school aren't helping but DD flames the situation daily and see's it as a war between her and them that she will win. She can't grasp that they will still have jobs when she has left so she is just punishing herself. School seem very resistant and play it down if I mention the possibility of an EHCP plan which I can't figure out.
I'm just bloody confused about what to do there seems very little support out there I have not tried but if DD won't engage it makes the process so much harder. So at present I am just trying to figure out how I can make her realise if she won't move and is resistant to anything different to her peers she will need to tow the line to a certain extent.

I understand the stress - my DS has an ASC.

I'm not sure the school can refuse to do an IEP. I'd research that. Also they really can't refuse to apply for assessment of EHCP if they are going to exclude. Because they have to prove they have taken all necessary steps.

It sounds like her behaviour is routed in anxiety. The strict teachers provide a no holds barred approach which will raise anxiety. Your dd will be anxious before lessons that she won't be able to conform and therefore that will cause her to act out. It's a no win situation.

There's a great book called the anxiety gremlin that my DS responded really well to.

I will look at that thank you. It is a crap situation it Is not the right school for her but at the same time she struggles with change so much by time she'd settled it would be time to leave and I worry it would be out of the frying pan into the fire. At least she has nice, supportive friends around her where she is. There is not much else locally that would be suitable.
I did think of home education for a while but a) I can't afford not to work b) she'd be lonely c) I reckon she'd avoid work and be a phone addict!