Your views on Inclusion in education please? Everyone welcome!

[dottee]

Hello everyone,

The success of the 'way for onlookers to behave' thread has really got me thinking and I hope you don't mind me starting a separate thread about 'Inclusion' in education.

I am a Governor at my daughter's school which is for children with Severe Learning Difficulties. We are in the middle of a review at present following the Government's directive of encouraging Inclusion into mainstream of children with Special Educational Needs.

I'd love to hear from everyone (whether you are mum of a SN child contemplating special or mainstream education or a mum of a NT child in mainstream). Please don't be shy of writing what you think. If the thread gets going, I'll add bits of what has been the opinion at our school, and what my own views/concerns are. Thank you.

Ds1 is due to start school in September and will be going to a mainstream primary school. This will probably work out well as long as he gets the support he needs.

I think inclusion CAN work but ONLY if the child is given plenty of support and there is good communication between the parents and the school. Unfortunately it seems as though some children are just being left to cope with it all with little or no help.

I think parents should get more say in whether they think their child needs to be in a specialist school. At the moment it seems to be a case of "You will go to a mainstream school unless you are prepared to face endless battles, appeals and tribunals to get the school you want." Mainstream is the right place for ds1 (I think!) but not all children are the same.

I may be cynical but sometimes it seems to be that the purpose of inclusion was so that money could be saved by closing down special schools and the resources that used to be available within them.

wHEN I TAIGHT THERE WERE A COUPLE OF KIDS WHO WERE INCLUDED QHO REALLY WERENT PROSPERING SOCIALLY. bECAUSE THEY LOOKED and BEAHVED ALITTLE DIFFERENTLY BUT NOT differently enough (IYKWIM) I always felt that they got the raw edge of the deal - there was no benefit atall to them of being in mainstream.

I still feel sorry for them as I am sure they werent happy.

We looked at 3 schools recently which each specialise in a particular special need: deafness, blindness, Down's syndrome. I can't speak to the side of whether it suits these children to be part of 'inclusive' education... but as a parent, I thought they were all good things about the schools for my (seemingly) normal children to be exposed to. Especially the deaf programme; to me, that was an opportunity to learn another language.
But it's be different if the SN child had behavior which tended to be disruptive to the education by others.

INclusion can work with support- although it depends what you mean by inclusion. My son attends mainstream- despite being non-verbal autistic and for him it is working. BUT he can cope with the children (a lot of autistic kids can't) he can cope with fluorescent lights and noise and smells. Having said that in order to learn anything he has to be taken into a rom by himself as the classroom just sends him hyper. He doesn't attend assembly. He has full time one to one and 3 days a week an autism outreach worker. Is this inclusion? Not sure.

However he would be worse off in a special school as he woudn't be givem one o one. In which case he would be unmanageable.

Hi Dottee

My DS (aged 8) was diagnosed ADHD with some associated developmental & behavioural difficulties in April last year. Prior to that DS had had some problems in mainstream school. I was told that he messed around, wouldn't co-operate, couldn't follow instructions, was constantly up and down, etc, etc. Eventually, after some problems DS was expelled. We fought this and at appeal DS was returned to his school. However, it became apparant very early on this would not work. DS had now got a "reputation" both among the children and the staff, some children egged DS on to mess about and on other occasions DS was blamed for other's misbehavour. The upshot was that DS had to leave the school and then went into a pupil support unit - excellent staff/student ratio and, along with his therapy, etc, has been making excellent progress. DS made such good progess that in November last year, he started back in a mainstream school - initially one day a week, now 3. However, I still feel that DS needs a lot of support and while he has a classroom assistant at the moment, this is not permanent. I have tried to get a statutory assessment done on DS as I believe he needs permanent assistance, but the LEA turned this down.

Overall, I feel that many SEN kids benefit from being in mainstream schools. However, this must always be balanced with them having the appropriate support systems in place - assistants, use of technology, time on their own, proper IEPs with appropriate backup,etc. The problem, as I see it, is that many LEAs simply closed special units to save money and then put when these SEN kids are in school - they have only the most minimal support (or at least what the LEAs can get away with). I feel that it's only if the parents fight every step of the way that the children get the support and help they need.

Sorry to have gone on for so long. But as you can tell this is something I feel strongly about. My DS's problems are not as severe as many SEN kids and because some people don't believe ADHD is a real condition, DS can sometimes have problems. Will be interested to see how this thread develops.

it all comes down to support support supposrt doesn't it. Despite my son being non verbal I still had a batt;le with the LEA to get full time 1:1 support. They don't seem to understand that his language level is between a 12 and 18 month level and therefore he can't listen to group instruction blah de blah. For me its a safety issue as well- without 1:1 at all times he would be unsafe.

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Galaxy - my DS was one of those "disruptive" children. The nature of ADHD - Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder - is that they find it hard to sit still, can't concentrate easily, don't always follow instructions well. However, my DS is also very bright - so when he races ahead of the other children (as sometimes happens) he gets frustrated when they can't keep up. But, as also happens, when he can't concentrate or is disruptive - he gets shifted out of the class. He also got picked on by the other children as they discovered they could make him angry easily.

I completely understand the school's need to consider other children's education and safety. But the problem I have, is that simply expelling my DS (as happened last year) doesn't solve the problem. I'm left with a child who needs an education, but isn't getting one (and if I'd kept him out of school I'd be prosecuted, but there's no come back in this situation). There is supposed to be home education - 5 hours a week!!!! But I didn't get that at first either, I was fortunate in that DS got a place in the special unit and I'd happily have my DS attend a special school/unit designed to cope with his needsd - but it's the cost. These children require more individual help - and it costs, so LEAs do as little as they can (well that's my experience).

In an ideal world I'd like my DS to attend the local mainstream school, but to have a full-time assistant (or a much smaller class) to help him cope. He is easily distracted and big classes don't help him. But again, it all comes down to cost. And there's no point in going to private schools - they may have smaller classes, but they don't (as a rule) handle SEN kids well.

This is a really tough area. Excluding SEN kids early on will, in many cases, lead to an adult life of exclusion, isolation and relationship problems. SEN kids need to be included so that they can learn to relate to others, and so that "normal" children can learn that not all disabilities are visible and that some people need to have special consideration.

Oh of course its a cost saving exercise! Obviously. I am having a run in with my LEA at the moment as they have stopped providing one to one support for my son at nursery. This is because - according to the LEA "he should be at school and we don't provide a babysitting service". Well yes, except that the reason he isn't at school full time yet is because the school a)don;t think he's ready and b) don't think they're ready. And who suffers: a) he does and b) the other children in the nursery do- yesterday was the first time that he has ever hurt another child- and he pinched 2- he has never done that before. I blame the LEA 100% for lack of support.

As regards bullying etc. We have been lucky so far the other children have been great. I don't think this will last.

Also I see no way that inclusion can work at secondary level - unless he comes on dramatically. i suspect we will be home educating

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but galaxy - that child may have a very dodgy home life- and he shouldn't really be considered as being the same as children with SN. Children with ADHD and autism can be very disruptive if their needs aren;t being met, but given the right support they don't have to be. It's much easier to provide a suitable environment for them, than to make up for lack of parenting iyswim

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Oh no I didn't think you were. Often - without the correct support they are- my son certainly is- but in that case the responsibility rests with the LEA and school, and often is easy to fix (for example my son doesn't attend assembly- now apparently the school could fail its ofsted insection for that- every child shouuld attend, but they have more sense luckily!. it just that children who are misbehaving becuase of poor parenting etc- have needs that will be very difficult to rectify- partly becuase a lot of the responsibity lies with the parents iyswim.

I'm a primary teacher (she says ducking quickly!!) and a mum. I totally agree with everything Coppertop says. IMO, there isn't the support for the children or for the teachers. I have no training in dealing with problems such as autism. The LEA in my area employs special needs auxiliaries straight "off the street". No disrespect meant, some of them are excellent, but some are awful and, clearly, not cut out for the job. The reality is that often children with special needs are left to cope on their own and get frustrated which can lead to problems. The kids have to be schooled where their needs can be met. If that's mainstream for some kids with SN, that's fine. But there are an awful lot of kids coming into mainstream schools who clearly can't cope. It can take years of toing and froing before they're eventually given a place in Special Ed. I wonder how much damage has been done by that time.

Hi Dottee, my daughter is 2.2 and has Down's syndrome. She is due to start a little nursery at Easter where she will be the oly SN child. In September my plan is to start her at a montessori school where again, to date she will be the only SN child. I wouldn't, at this stage, consider anything other than mainstream. I don't feel she needs to be treated any differently at the moment, although she may need a liitle more help with movement and a little more patience.

After nursery I hope she will get into the local Catholic mainstream school where she will not be the only child with SN which at 5+ I think will be greatt for her. This school has a great reputation and has many children with SN.

At high school stage, depending on lotties abilities and persponal preference i may consider a school for children with SN as it may be more focused on her needs rather than the needs of the masses at GCSE level, we'll cross that bridge when it comes to it.

My choices so far re nurseries and schools have all been down to them feeling right and the attitude of teachers I have come across.

I teach in a secondary school, and I agree with Coppertop, it can work but only if the child gets the right level of support. And for some children mainstream schooling will never be suitable, because their needs cannot be catered for, unless they are taught by specialists in small class sizes.

I know that inclusion is supposed to mean that all children can be catered for, but I am afraid that in the real world their isn't enough support put in for most children with SEN.

Haveing read the whole thread, I'd loke to agree with those who have said it is a cost cutting excersize...it is!

If I had my wish come true I would like to see every school have two special units. One for children with SEN, where they can be properly helped and integrated into lessons where they can cope etc. And a special unit for children with EBD, where they can also be helped. Both units would be staffed by specialists with small class sizes. Then we could do something for these children! When they could cope they could integrate with their peers, and if things got difficult they could have a safe, supportive environment within the same school, so they wouldn't be socialy excluded.

For example I teach a boy of 15 who has a reading age of about 7. There is almost nothing that he can access in many lessons. He could have intensive help with his reading for those lessons in the special unit, and then join the rest of the class for PE, Drama, Art, breaktime, lunchtime. He could socialise with his friends and get an education. At the moment he is bored out of his mind in lessons and becomes very disruptive. And who can blame him?

As some of you are aware, I have two much older children and it appears that things have come full circle since they were young. The battles back in the 70's were about allowing children with special needs into mainstream schools. Parents had no choice in those days, if you had a disabled or 'educationally subnormal' as they called it, child, they had to go to Special School or even not go to school at all. Parents began campaigning for mainstream schooling and I still have a litle blackboard and easel that was bought for ds when a local special school was eventually closed down.

It seems to me that there simply isn't a one-size-fits-all answer to this. SN's vary so much that one solution surely isn't possible? In fact, the same goes for all children - they all vary in their needs and some will flourish better in some schools than others.

Re the money saving aspect. Our local council is also carrying out an Inclusion & Disabilty exercise. Having recently fought a battle to save our village school from closure, we have a nasty suspicion they will now try to close schools under the guise of the Disabilty act, by saying it's not possible to adapt old buildings to modern standards.

Disability - I can spell, really!

my dd2 is 2.9 and attends an SN nursery which is part of a school for severe learning disabilities going up to age 16. She loves it and so do we and I'm hopeful that she will continue to go there through her school life. Physio and SALT are on site. She is non-mobile and non-verbal and, at the moment, I can't see any meaningful way she could cope or benefit from mainstream. So far, we've been told she will continue at special school, however, I wouldn't be surprised if someone came along and moved the goalposts.

We are just very lucky that we live so near to a school providing these resources and also in a relatively lowly populated rural area where there is less demand for services (but also fewer skilled professionals available to provide them). One special school in the county has been closed down and another is under threat, it all seems such a tragic waste of talented staff. I'm dreading our school coming under the axe, but apparently because it deals with the most severely affected children, it is most likely safe. I hope I don't have to eat my words.

The best argument I've ever seen for inclusive education came a few years ago when I taught a class that included one student with epilepisy. At the beginning of the year, every time he had a seziure there was a riot, students getting upset, total chaos in fact. After about a month the tutor and learning support talked with the class (without the student present, at his request) and explained the epilepsy in terms of computers crashing and rebooting (something they could all relate to). They were told of the necessity of timing the seizures, when to get worried, how to tell when he was coming round and what to do if he fell over. Within weeks, you could not even tell if he was having a seizure. The students around him would notice the warning signs, quietly position themselves to stop him falling, and calmly carry on with their work. When he recovered they would calmly move back to their usual places and help him with the bits he had missed.

The best bit was when he had a seizure one day in the foyer. A crowd gathered and the usual mayhem ensued. I was so proud to hear one of his classmates tell the (mostly older) students to ge a grip, he was just having a seizure and would be fine in about 5 minutes. Their calm, matter of fact attitude just stopped the chaos in it's tracks.

I honestly think exposure to a variety of abilities helps students build empathy.

Slug...agree with your last sentence.

I mentioned on the 'how to behave thread' that as a young adult I had little understanding of children (or adults for that matter) who behaved differently, particularly when the SN is hidden. During the whole of my education (in the 70's)I never encountered a SN child, neuro or physically disabled in school. My one experience was a friend who had mild cerebral palsy and a limb length discrepancy and she attended a special school.

If we want people not to behave like the one on the Virgin thread or the woman on the train, then we need to have experience of the diversity of society.

We are planning to send ds 2 to a mainstream school, that ds1 and dd2 currently attend. I am very hopeful it will work out, but there are a lot of logistical problems for them to overcome, as the school is 19th century built, and therefore not exactly disabled friendly. I don't think they ahve had a child quite as physically disabled as ds2 before. However, they are making the most fantastic efforts to overcome any hurdles, trying to get a specially painted disabled spot right outside the school (there are no pavements, so ds2 would have to run the gauntlet of the cars with his wobblyness if he is walking by then, or we would have to carry him over),moving the school reception or fitting in some sort of lift so he can access it (stairs atm) and fitting ramps everywhere for him. I had a big chat with the head recently, and she said they need a lot of building work done, and want to include ds2's requirements in with it, so I wrote a letter for her to show to whoever wanted it, outlining what ds2 will need and why. They are absolutely unfazed by any extra help he will need in the classroom too. I feel really lucky to have such a positive approach from them, but also very aware that this is not always the case, despite rules saying it should be.

My biggest concern is how his peers will react to him, if he will make friends, feel left out because he can't race around the playground after them, will he get invites to friends after school, that sort of stuff. I have no worries at all with regards to his actual teaching time.

I agree 100% that it benefits children to be in school with children who have special needs (and society for that matter). But this benefit shouldn't happen at the cost of the child with special needs. I see lotsof kids who need far more provision than they are given in a mainstream school. They are being badly short changed by the system.