Your views on Inclusion in education please? Everyone welcome!

[dottee]

Hello everyone,

The success of the 'way for onlookers to behave' thread has really got me thinking and I hope you don't mind me starting a separate thread about 'Inclusion' in education.

I am a Governor at my daughter's school which is for children with Severe Learning Difficulties. We are in the middle of a review at present following the Government's directive of encouraging Inclusion into mainstream of children with Special Educational Needs.

I'd love to hear from everyone (whether you are mum of a SN child contemplating special or mainstream education or a mum of a NT child in mainstream). Please don't be shy of writing what you think. If the thread gets going, I'll add bits of what has been the opinion at our school, and what my own views/concerns are. Thank you.

Oops, sorry I meant to say Jimjams!

I don't think many mainstream schools can but some do. We chose ds1's school becuase they treat the children as individuals- something that you mentioned- and I think the most important thing in a school. Assembly's a funny thing isn't it. My son doesn't go, but my friend's son (also autistic) who started the same time as ds1 ended up having to leave his school (now home edded) - and one big problem was assembly- so stressed he bit his LSA.

What's the staff ratio on the trips out? I know the local ASD unit does those sometimes as well, but I know my son wouldn't be safe without one to one- which I'm not sure they would provide. I think the local unit is more suitable for AS really. Having said that the autism outreach team mentioned organising trips out with my son (and his LSA and me) to practice things like queing. So I guess mainstream can do it- but again the support needs to be in place. I do think we are very very lucky with our mainstream school though- and I don't think our experience is typical. To give the LEA some credit the autism outreach team have been a great asset and to have them going in 3 times a week is sensible. WIthout that the school would have struggled.

Call me cynical but I think the reason these units are always in poor areas is because the schools in "nice" areas don't want SN kids attached. For starters they'd mess up the SATS result. Cynical? Definitely!

The primary school my dd goes to is right next to a secondary school, and some of the land between is shared. The schools have announced tonight that they are planning to welcome a local special school on to the site permenenatly. They have siad that it's not quite a merger, but that part of the special school will move to the site of the other two schools. Children with special needs can then start at the sn campus at the age of 2 and then be included into the other two schools as they get older and their education progresses.
I think it is an excellant idea, and hope it gets the go ahead. I haven't really explained the plans properly, but i hope know what i mean. There has been an article in the local paper about it tonight. One thing i did think though, was that my daughters school should of mentioned it to parents so that they could give their support.

The school that my friends ds goes to has 8 in the class with 1 teacher and 4 assistants. They seriously cope well with the children and a lot of the children are probably on the moderate/severe end of the spectrum. They are intergrated into mainstream according to how much they can cope, eg my friends ds may go to assembly for 10 minutes a week - but they are working on it and each week it may be a minute more. Not sure about the trips but I can imagine there is a high ratio of staff.
It's great to hear that your ds has support going into the school as mainstream teachers just aren't specialised (as much as I'm sure they'd like to be) and do not have enough time with a class of 30 children - I really admire them!!!!!!!!!
My dd used to be a nightmare at the old school in assemblies so imagine how proud I was at christmas when dd managed to perform, sit wait her turn, sing at the right time for over 40 mins - at the new school. All of the children were v. well behaved and 25% of the children in that school are in the language unit so the school must be doing something right!
One last thing my dd's school was bottom of the league table. Unfair really considering they have such a high ratio of SEN children - well over 50%. My dd at the age of 4 1/2 has been taught to read and is doing so well that quite frankly I don't care where they come!

i read recently that one of the schools in the area is having a special autism unit attached to it. i think its just in the planning stage at the moment. see if i can find any more on it later.

Aagh! I'm just catching up on the posts since I posted and still haven't managed to read the whole thing.......
Dino, yes please email me.
My LEA recently opened a unti with a mainstream school and spent a LOT of money on it. However, even with professionals who are very experienced with ASD, they have naively understaffed it and hadn't thought about taking kids to the toilet, break times, lunches etc. It too is in a deprived area of the borough and I think that SEN chlidren are more accepted in an environment where diversity is normal (plus the posh schools don't want the hassle etc). ANother good idea is for the NT children to go into the SEN part of the school as well as the other way round.
Something that becomes more important as children get older, is that they are at school to be educated, its not just for socialisation although that is a very big factor. IMHO A child with severe LEARNING disability just can't be educated effectively in a fulltime mainstream setting as they, and the other children, get older. My observation of special schools (one of our local ones has again a glowing Ofsted report) is that they do not prioritse LEARNING. THey seem satisfied to occupy, entertain and contain the children. At my son's school the culture is very much that the priority is LEARNING. OK, that may be something as small as using his pockets or tolerating wearing a hat, but it can also be learning numbers and letters, reading and writing, expanding vocabulary and verablisation, toilet training, the things that can be taught are never ending and, of course, individualised. How individualised can teaching be in a mainstream setting? Maybe no-one thinks it matters as long as the SEN child in the m/s classroom does not cause any trouble but what about their need to learn what is appropriate to them?
Sorry, very rambly, head not together after weekend!

sorry have only skimmed over other responses! My dd (who has a moderate global development delay) goes to special school (physically disabled school) and it is a wonderful place. She has so much oppurtunity there, hydrotherapy, physio, riding, speech therapy - OT although I am not happy with the level she gets there.

We are moving area though and she will have to go to mainstream school. I am part worried and part encouraged by this. She will be going to a mainstream school with a PD unit on the side. She should be included for the majority of classes. I think she will enjoy it. Practical sides of a place like this for her is that it is all on one level and there a very few steps! She is also going to have a weekly OT session which we havent had here. I am worried about bullying too. I dont know whether it will work or not for her, only time will tell.

My sister had cystic fibrosis and did not have a statement but missed alot of schooling due to poor health, so her education had to be met in a different manner. The primary school she used to go to was fabulous. If she was off through illness a teacher used to come round to the house to teach her at home!! I canm not imagine this happening nowadays at all! But the secondary school she went to were terrible. They used to send her work at home, but my Mother had to teach it her.

fio2, yes I will try to do my homework tonight and read the whole thread!
Of course any educational provision is going to depend on the child's level of disability or special needs but, sorry to depress anyone here, so far all my friends who have autistic children in mainstream do not feel able to send them to mainstream secondary. THis includes the most verbal and clever asperger kids whose parents don't think they will cope with the demands of the way a secondary school is organised, e.g. changing class each time you change subject, having many teachers, not wanting an LSA (or equivalent, what is available at secondary?) following you around in front of the other kids. I hadn't even thought about bullying.....

Very good point Davros. But I think partly that comes from the culture of it not be worth teaching these children anything, or "it's too difficult". I've already been told that "it's too difficult" to teach my son to speak. What they mean is that in order to get to a stage where he is ready to imitate speech sounds he first needs to learn to imitate gross motor actions, then fine motor actions. This all takes a lot of one to one time. What they mean is that he's too expensive.

Well......i've stayed off this thread .....but can keep away no more!!!!!

I feel that in the case of my son (10 with AS) inclusion is not fostering his 'basic needs' at the moment- mainly reminding him to go and eat his lunch....now i've brought this to the attention of one of the teaching assistants (she's been there 15yrs).......she has said she will 'try' to make sure he goes to lunch- however yesterday he didn't even drink anything all day- I explained to her that children with an ASD can be 'in tune' with 'bodily function/needs' so may not realise they are hungry -or eat constantly ...avoid toileting- or 'need to go frquently' or not feel the cold/heat and will need help dressing appropriately.

she was COMPLETELY unaware of all this - and said today that she could think of at least 1 lad who had obviously been 'misunderstood' as he would insist on keeping his sweatshirt on during hot weather - and noone new why.

I explained to her that at home my sons have to come downstairs to use the bathroom- and i offer drinks and snacks as they hurtle by- i said that if i didn't remind ds1 to chew and swallow he eats like a snail- i pointed out that this is why i believe when he does eat he eats so little as they only have a 20 minute slot to eat- and because he also has NO support in class (inclusion at it's best!) he frequently does not finish his work and is kept back for 10 mins to finish in peace .
At the moment i feel very let down by his school- Maryz described on another thread how her son is 'understood' by his peers- my son's school have done nothing to explain 'different' needs to the 'normal' kids- and therefore he gets no support from kids either.
Finaly.... Inclusion seems to do NOTHING for the parents either- if he were in a 'special school' I would benefit by being able to speak to other parents with similar experiences....i have mumsnet thank god- but i feel isolated at school when every 'course' run for parents is 'general' to all children- and many times i have been told ' he's just this....or that ....or the other' when i describe a 'behaviour'.....when I know that none of them have a clue what i am on about. So i avoid these' Helping your child with Numeracy' etc courses as they just do not apply to SEN....hope i make sense! Also in the past 2 school years ds1 and 2 have had 4 party invites in total...... 2 to our nextdoor neighbour and 2 to close friends of mine......therefore INCLUSION is not fair SOCIALY for the child as they don't get invited to parties etc ....as 'They Behave Differently' and to be fair the other parents are 'scared' for want of a better word....however when i meet another child with ANY SEN...i feel desparate to make them feel 'listened to and valued' so if my son attended a spesial unit he would have oppertunity to have a 'social life'

I will stop now as i do ramble on!

And i have probably got the complete wrong idea about Inclusion as defined by the LEA!!!!!

That's the point I have been trying to make about Units, they are fantastic. To prove even more how they work, for some children, is that yesterday went in to talk to dd's mainstream teacher. How gobsmacked was I when she told me that dd is in the top groups for all of her work and how well dd is getting on. I am also going in on Friday so that I can see the work that dd has produced for myself. I have experiences of both - mainstream and units and for us, as rambled on 100 times before it has been an extremely positive experience. The difference to dd now that her needs are being met is fantastic, I can't really put it into words. It is such a nice feeling for us knowing that dd is happy and more importantly is learning to her full potential, something that wasn't possible a year ago!!!:0

Good point MrsF about how Inclusion affects parents. We are definitely part of a community at my son's school. We have an active parents' group, lots of us are friendly independently as (obviously) we all live fairly near each other. We have an EGroup for parents only and we meet up every month or so. We also have Class Reps and a home/school liaison group which includes parents and staff where we hash out issues like home/school books and how to use/improve them, what happens when parents want to visit school etc. We also have at least one social event each year (summer and/or Xmas) for parents, staff and guests, oh and the kids! OK, this isn't directly relevant to my son's education but it all helps.

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I think the "hide them away" attitude has gone now secur. Inclusion is the new buzzword, and particularly over the last 4 years parents have had to fight like mad to get their child into special school (if that's what they want). A friend of mine had to battle for a year to be allowed to look round a special school then had to wait another year before her son could go (he was 8, almost non-verbal autistic, hadn't been taught to read or write at mainstream, has "escaped" from the school and reached home before anyone noticed he was missing- across 2 busy roads- and still she had to battle).

And good points about the parents as well from MrsF. I find it very difficult to mix with NT families. I don't mix with the mum's at school becuase ds1 is picked up and dropped off at different times from everyone else. I do make sure that I go various meetings, but the topics under discussion are completely irrelevent to my son. I'm lucky as I know lots of parents in the same situation as me, but if I didn;t I think I would find school a very isolating place.

secur, all good points. The only thing is that Inclusion, as its being delivered now, is the cheaper option
I must be unusual because there were 2 SEN children in my class at junior school (boo hoo 35 years ago!). They were both accepted, especially a girl with CP (then called spastic) who was with us from day one. Another girl joined the class later, she had suffered brain damage from head injuries caused when she was run over (god, her poor parents). She was less communicative and more of a curiosity but accepted, she was also a little older than the rest of us (ooh, hairy armpits etc!).

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SECUR- you have a great understanding of how we feel- thankyou.

Davros.....the 'once a month' meeting you have is that aim at SEN....i'd like to get something going like that- and 'invite' NT parents to come so that they can 'learn' the differences etc . (at a recent course i did called 'bridging the gap' one parent told me that i should 'ground' DS1 by stopping him using his playstation/computer.....that is a 'lovely' idea.....no understanding of Autism and obsessions.- but i tried to 'forgive' as if she's not 'told' than how can she 'know'

Also yesterday i brought home 4 'complete' lunchboxes belonging to ds1- which showed that in 2 weeks he had only ate 1 of his packed lunches...he said he was 'scared' to bring them home- i explained that i would NEVER be cross with him- i would be cross that the school did not give him the 'VERBAL' prompt he needs to remember to eat- and ONLY ever be 'cross (?)' with HIM if he 'hid' this problem from me by not bringing the lunch back home ( he has not 'thought' of throwing it in the bin to hide the 'evidence ) I have hopefully got him to understand that his medication reduces appetite- and his aspergers affects his 'awareness' of alot of 'bodily' functions/needs- so i am hoping that he feels 'better' about this. I explained to him that at home he ALWAYS has lunch and tea and supper (he rarely eats breakffast)- so 'proved' to him that if he is asked to eat- he does- so therefore it is somethimng that the SCHOOL are required to do- like i do at home- and that if they cannot do this - then i am CROSS with THEM- not him- and it indicates he DOES need SUPPORT that IS NOT PROVIDED at the moment.

Oh MrsF, my son's at a special school, that's why we meet up etc. We usually discuss things going on at school, e.g. its moving later this year, its setting up a secondary provision etc etc. We also just sit around gassing. But we don't have to explain anything..... I think bridging the gap with the other parents is an excellent idea but a LOT of hard work for you. Maybe getting a speaker in would be a good idea? If there's a local NAS branch they might be able to help with ideas.
How active and involved are the parents at the school anyway? Are there regular meetings and get togethers? If not, it will be hard to get something going but, if there is already something happening you could "hijack" a meeting now and then. Sorry, not much use

I know my daughter is younger than some of yours but I have started to worry she will never get invited to anyones house to play when she starts mainstream school. She has friends at her special school who are developmentally similar and she had even got invited to a birthday party! But I am just worried she will be socially isolated, am I being silly?

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fio2 - of course you're not being silly to worry - it's very natural - it's certainly been a concern of mine with DS1 - and I think that all mums worry about this whether or not their children are special needs

however, I've been very reassured by DS1's experiences since he started in mainstream Reception in January because despite being a bit of an oddball (to put it mildly) he does seem to be making friends. In fact to my utter astonishment he's actually being touted to some other kid's parents as a good person for their son to be friends with (the other boy is very shy but apparently DS1 really encourages him to speak).

Like me, you've probably spent too much time on planet "developmental delay" up till now - when she starts in mainstream you will see that in fact there is a very wide variation between "normal" kids in terms of their abilities, whether social or otherwise, and my guess would be that your dd will do just fine. Obviously there's lots you can do as well in terms of inviting other mums and their kids to play etc (I always feel guilty that I don't do enough of this for DS1, but it's not easy when you work.)

Thanks dino! I am glad I am not the only one who worries about this. And bless your son for helping his friend to have confidence too, that must be a real boost for you. I guess I am worrying more because her vocab is limited and although is signing well now, wonder whether other children in her class will understand her. She is such a sociable little girl and I know she loves company and playing with other children, I just think it will be a shame if she misses out on friendship iykwim. I am just worrying about everything at the moment though,! I have started to worry about her school dinner times there and playtime. Playtime because she is vulnerable in busy situations and will get knocked over. I wish I could stop fretting. I think it is more to do with her going to special school which is safe. I really feel like I am sending my lamb to the slaughter God I really am rambling today, I need a lie down!

And yes dinosaur you are right I think I have been spending to much time on planet 'development delays' aswell!

what I meant to say which didnt put very well is she goes to special school now which I feel is safe but her having to go to mainstream in September doesnt feel safe iykwim