3.5 year old still waking 4 times a night. At the end of my tether now.

[suwoo]

I have DD aged 8, always a good sleeper, DS1 who is 4 in December, always been a 'high needs' baby particularly regarding sleep. DS2 is one on Friday and generally sleeps through (in our room).

Everything with DS1 has had to be done slowly, I have a blog on MN about getting him to sleep in his own bed whilst I was pg with DS2.

Whilst we were in France for 2 weeks, he slept through about 10 of the 14 nights. Maybe to do with all the activity, playing out all day etc

Back home now and back to waking 4 times (sometimes more) each night.

He sleeps in a fleece all in one with feet to alleviate waking up cold. He asks for milk and will normally have 2 cups a night. Often, he will call me but still be asleep . That really drives me crazy!

He doesn't eat enough which can't help, so we try to get him to have toast at bedtime.

He goes to bed fine by himself and doesn't need us to sit with him or anything.

I don't really want to leave him crying, so as not to wake up the other two and the neighbours.

He is at school part time, which did help but starts FT in September. I am clinging onto this helping. I work evenings and am going to uni in September. We have no childcare and I haven't had a night away from them since our honeymoon 5 years ago.

I think this is a vent more than advice seeking. Getting really fucked off with this now and finding it difficult to cope.

Oh and he won't have DH do anything with him, he is a hardcore mummys boy.

It is now a habit of asking for milk in the night which you need to break. He is old enough to be told to go back to bed. He may cry for a while but he will get the message.

You need to stop forcing DH out of the equation too. Who is the parent here?

I don't NEED bossiness.

ok, sorry, just give in to him then

Why change the habit of a lifetime.

I need guidance,not 'telling'. Your 'who is the parent' was quite harsh. I am sitting here, ready to run away from it all, tears streaming down my face.

I don;t want sarcasm, just help.

Bless him - he's got into a habit and you are going to need to help him break it.

Waking in the night is being rewarded at the moment with attention and milk so, in my opinion, while he gets that reward he will keep waking....

I would start by not letting him drink milk in the night. Even if he is a poor eater, he really shouldn't need a couple of milk drinks a night (you never know he might eat better in the daytime if he has not had the milk at night?) It won't be easy but when he wakes and asks for a drink, offer him water. Tell him that big boys don't have milk at night but if he's really thirsty he can have a sip of water.

You also, again in my opinion, need to get your DH involved. Take it in turns when he wakes a night. Go to him, tuck him back in bed, kiss him on the forhead and say 'it's sleeptime now, night night' and then walk away. That way you are not ignoring him, but he is not getting the attention / milk....

I have been through this with DS2 and this method did work for me - it took a couple of weeks for him to get the message but he has slepy through since!

Hope you get it sorted

I think you are maybe being over sensitive here. There is no need to be nasty.

You are obviously at the end of your tether but need to remain objective about this.

You are the parents....why can't your DH assist with this, if the pressure is heaped on to you all the time? Maybe I have made a massive assumption that DH is the parent and lives with you. Sorry if that is not the case.

I'm not being nasty scurryfunge and I don't want to get into a row with you, thank you for taking the time to post. I know I need to break the habit. DH is his dad and does live here, but if he tries to do anything with him (predominantly in the night) all hell brakes loose.
DS1 is a lovely boy, his teachers love him, he is just very hard work. His nickname for his first three years was velcroboy.
Having a night like last night, where I didn't get as much as one hour un broken does tend to make one feel less than normal and I am seriously question my mental health. I'm not sure if I am ready to break the habit.

Started this post 20 mins ago or whatever. Have been chatting with my friend on the phone who has similar ishoos with her child and do you know what. I've talked myself into it. Am going to stop the milk. Starting tonight.

Is there anyway that someone else could have the other two to allow you to go 'hard core' on him without waking them?

Alternatively, my friend experienced this and she took her other 2 kids away for 3 nights holiday (at her Mums I think) whilst her DS had 'big boy' time with Daddy (they put tents up in the garden etc) He did kick off, and her DH had broken nights....however it cured him.

At 4, they are old enough to understand what is going on around them. This is not like leaving a tiny baby to scream a la CC. I would have thought you would perhaps like to sort this ebfore he goes to school? It must make him tired as well, which will impact on how copes in reception. Also, is he dry at night, or does all the milk mean he still has to be in pull ups?

You must knackered! It is hard....but I dont think you are doing him or you any favours by letting him carry on.

Oh Suwoo, you have a billion tonnes of sympathy from me. I was considering starting a similar thread at 4 o'clock this morning.

Getting no sleep, or disturbed sleep night after night after night is just so wearing. In the daytime I cope fine, but in the middle of the night I feel so utterly defeated and foul about it. And it is made SO MUCH WORSE when I am looking at my darling boy and shrieking silently in my head "YOU ARE TOO OLD TO BE DOING THIS, JUST GO TO ARSING SLEEP AND STAY ASLEEP LIKE EVERY OTHER CHILD IN THE WORLD, OR I WILL SELL YOU". Maybe that's just me? I am not at my most rational in the middle of yet another joke of a night.

And I have had to stop mentioning it to friends because they look at me blankly and say "err... well stop feeding him in the night then?" and I say it isn't quite as simple as that and they pat me on the arm and say "Yes Yuno, it really is, you just need to take charge, stop feeding him and teach him how to sleep through the night" and I feel so judged and rubbish.

Ds is also a velcro baby. I am his sun, his moon, his everything. He loves mummy and loves his milkies so fiercly that I come to a complete wall and can't find the strength to take it away from him and deal with the ensuing chaos and anguish. I know I have to... but I can't. So we are locked in a miserable cycle of no sleep, tired daytimes, me feeling ever more resentful, and no one to tell or ask for advice.

How are you going to stop the milk? What is your plan for tonight?

No, unfortunately there is no-one to take them. We have NO childcare. My parents moved to France which is a whole other tale of woe.

I don't mean to sound defensive and like I am making excuses, and yes I admit I do indulge DS, but unless you have had a little bastard a child like this, it is very difficult to understand just how hard it is. When I read Dr Sears and his high needs baby/toddler it was such relief that there are other children out there like this.

Yuno, I am exactly like that in the night too, so it will be a big learning curve for me to keep my patience so I don't make it worse. Have you read Dr Sears?

I have told him there will be no more milk in the night, just at bedtime, as he is a big boy etc.

We are doing a sticker chart, and he is keenly waiting to look on the computer for his present after doing 7 days with no milk.

I will still go in to him, and I am prepared to sit with him until he settles, I don't think I can breeze in and then back to bed. I will however play it by ear.

Whatever it takes, there is no going back. I am going to do it until I've cracked it.

Now, how do I sort out all my other issues that are making me feel like shit.....

We have the same problem with 3.9 year old DD although she has SN, having sleep counselling. We were told to gradually water her milk down and then she might not want it any more.

Also we found changing her nappy really helps to stop her waking, you could make sure he goes to toilet.

Also she still has naps so we are cutting them down.

We were also told to be really boring when we went in to him, and just say the same thing every time "it's time to go to sleep", and to stretch out the interval before going in.

Also really tiring her out a LOT during the day helps.

Not sure if any of this will help you but hope it does.

We also take turns to spend time in with her so the other gets a sleep.

The sticker chart might well work for you though re the milk, DD is different as she doesnt have the understanding of a normal 3 year old, or the words.

SUwoo - sounds like you are feeling strong! I feel your pain ref any family support - ours are all at least 4 hours away so not exactly easy or regular help there!

It sounds like such a strain on you having to do this all - and also a major source of control from DS that he can demand (all the time) what parent looks after him. Thats why I suggested fleeing the house as my friend did - if you cant go to parents like her, then even a short city break in a travel lodge with your DD and DS2??

If that seems like too much, then once you have managed to wean him off the milk, could you introduce DH at the night - perhaps you alternating with him? Sometimes despite all the tiredness and anger at being got up, there is a little kernal of 'I am secretly glad that it is only ME that can soothe him - he loves ME that much.' But you can't always be there, and wont in the future.

but notyummy in her sugggestin isn't mentioning childcare, but going away by mum and the other kids

Thanks for your perspective fanjo, he does seemto respond to the sticker chart, but I don't think it is enough of an incentive during the hours of milk seeking darkness, but you never know!

He still wears a nappy at night. Maybe its due to the milk, maybe not, but I am sure he will be dry before 7.

I need to do more with him during the day, but I work from home and then go out to work at tea time, but I need to make more effort to tire him out.

You need a big attack on this and once you decide what you can do, you must do it until it success.

Firstly, sort out the eating. You are right not eating enough during the day is not going to allow your child to sleep through. Being a 'hardcore Mummy's boy' is not fair on anyone and he cannot decide which parent deals with him, in fact it seems that he makes a lot of decisions. Remember he is only four and you know what's best not him.

If this weren't waking in the night but running across a road you would have dealt with this tears and all. So you must remember that your child needs sleep, a child that has a poor nights sleep every night in ds2's class cried everyday at school because she was exhausted. A tired child will not learn as well either.

And to be honest tears at four will be more about temper than true sadness.

Notyummy, your last paragraph is correct. Very perceptive .

I'm not sure about going away, I really don't think he or I are up to that. See above

I like notyummy's idea - you need a night's peace, leave him with DH. He may be upset but longer term he needs to understand his dad can be there for him - otherwise when are you ever going to be able to have a break? He's 4, not a tiny baby, and he can cope with that. Scurryfunge was harsh initially but has a point - you are not letting this happen because it's too unbearable for you to see DS upset. That's understandable but that way lies years of suffering for you.

One thought occurs to me - is he maybe too hot? My DC would be sweltering in fleece at this time of year. I'd experiment with different bedding.

Also rewards (in our case pasta jar) for sleeping through and not bothering us until waking up time worked well with my DS. He eventually learned that when he wakes up in the night he can just go back to sleep, and only to call if there's a problem (of course we don't mind getting up if it's a nightmare, wet bed etc).

Well, what if he wants pasta every night, is it ok to give it to him as he will eat loads? Just til we get the milk thing sorted?

suwoo - wasn't sure re the nappy as I only know about SN kids you see. We found a wet nappy was definitely waking DD up.

Also not eating is a BIG factor, she now has a bowl of cereal before bed.

I have to say I give DD whatever she will eat to get a sleep, and pasta is fine for a 3 year old IMO!

Don't forget, I have said I am going to withdraw milk, tonight. It is starting. We don't need to keep analysing him being a mummys boy or whatever.

I am going to do it. Until success. No backing down.

Tuna pasta and a couple of alternatives, every night? With fruit obv.

As long as he eats a range of food at other times - then why not pasta most nights?

I think Marine was referring to a pasta jar where you put something in everyday that they are 'good' so they can see it mounting up. When full they get a reward that they have chosen.

that sounds fine and much better than my DD will usually eat!!