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Original poster

mn hq, can we have an explanation - jess - and maybe re other trolls in future?

56 replies

wannaBe · 20/02/2012 13:40

I am aware that you can't divulge the means by which you determine whether or not a poster is genuine, predominantly because if you make that common knowledge then posters will know how to avoid being detected in the future.

but jess (long ongoing eleven weeks abortion threads) threads have now been deleted for being a troll, and I was wondering if, given it's the site users who usually report these things, we could perhaps have a bit more by way of explanation?

e.g. when sassysusan was banned, mn hq confirmed that she had previously posted as washwithcare, and users were able to identify.

There has been some speculation that jess was dizzymare, and I wondered whether this was the case?

Also, these threads have been ongoing for over a month now. How is it that it takes quite this long to determine that someone isn't actually all they seem?

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MNHQ

HelenMumsnet · 20/02/2012 14:25

Hello.

As wannaBe says, we generally never divulge how and why we have come to the conclusion that a poster may or may not be genuine but, seeing as this thread's been started and so many people were involved in jess080990's threads, we think it's only fair to clarify things a little.

OK, so, yes, jess080990 has been reported to us many times since she joined MN, and we were watching her threads.

But, as we said to all those who reported her, there was nothing we could see about her posts or other stuff that made us think for sure that she was anything other than genuine.

And, mindful of the fact that, if she were genuine, she was a poster in need of huge amounts of support and advice at a difficult and vulnerable time in her life, it was clear to us that we should very much stick to our long-held stance of erring on the side of benefit of the doubt.

So that meant, when the trollhunting started, we did delete any suggestion that she was trolling - as our guidelines state that we will.

However, in the past few hours, it's become clear to us that jess080990 was posting about her situation on other forums. Nothing wrong with that, of course - we don't demand exclusivity! But, on one particular forum, jess080990 had arrived at a decision about her baby a full week before she started her first thread on Mumsnet, asking for advice about what to do.

We still have no reason to doubt the general facts of jess080990's situation but it's clear to us that her first thread on Mumsnet was started after she had posted on another forum that she'd made up her mind about her abortion. And that, therefore, means she was posting here in, at the very least, a misleading way.

MNHQ

HelenMumsnet · 20/02/2012 14:33

Forgot to say: many many thanks to those who reported. We know some of you think reporting posters to us is a waste of time but we really do need to jump up and down and say it really isn't.

Every report we get tells us something new. And every report we get is followed up. We simply can't "see" everything on the boards, so, unless you report things you're worried about, we're quite likely not pick up on anything at all.

MNHQ

HelenMumsnet · 20/02/2012 14:35

Also forgot to say , we have absolutely no reason to think jess is linked to dizzymare in any way at all.

MNHQ

HelenMumsnet · 20/02/2012 14:35

@LittleMissGoodEnough

Okey dokey, loud and clear. Will start pressing buttons then!

thank you!

MNHQ

HelenMumsnet · 20/02/2012 14:39

@hathorinareddress

But the thing is Helen many times it's just a gut instinct, a feeling, that something's not right - there's nothing really tangible

I know. But we'd still like you to tell us about those gut feelings, please. Sometimes, your gut may be way off but sometimes, it might not.

I reckon that, of the "troll" reports we get, over half are on the money - even if it takes us a while to discover that.

And it's the discovering that's very time-consuming. The sooner we can start the discovery process , the sooner we can act (if we need to).

MNHQ

HelenMumsnet · 20/02/2012 14:41

@LeBOF

"we're quite likely not to pick up on anything at all"...

You said it, Helen Grin

why will you never acknowledge the bloody obvious wanking troll?

Can you tell us if you banned Penandink today, Helen? Or explain why he seemed to get posts deleted on request that in no way broke any guidelines? For example, Soupdragon suggested to him that if he didn't enjoy the way MN worked, there were many other places to explore on the Internet. Deleted. No personal attack, no troll hunting. I'm baffled, I tell ye.

Have you reported the the bloody obvious wanking troll?

MNHQ

HelenMumsnet · 20/02/2012 14:48

@LeBOF

For example, Soupdragon suggested to him that if he didn't enjoy the way MN worked, there were many other places to explore on the Internet. Deleted. No personal attack, no troll hunting. I'm baffled, I tell ye.

Acksherly. Soupy said, "Oh FFS get a grip or bog off to another website if you don't like this one."

Which was a personal attack

MNHQ

HelenMumsnet · 20/02/2012 14:57

Let's not get into trollhunting now, please, folks. Or I'll have to delete the thread and I have already worn a weary groove into the delete button today.

Any other concerns about any other posters, please use the report button.

MNHQ

HelenMumsnet · 20/02/2012 15:03

@Northernlurker

Pinot - first thing is don't reveal things about your personal story that you aren't happy for what is basically a ghoul to dine out on. If it will hurt you to see it made use of wrongly then DON'T SAY IT. For me for example on Jess's thread I referred to my own unplanned pregnancy. That's fine, it's not a secret and it's many years ago and it worked out fine. I didn't however say anything about what I did or my intimate stuff because that's my stuff and not for common consumption when I don't trust the OP. The second thing is think bout your RL safety and don't give out your e-mail or phone numbers. If you want to meet up do it in a VERY public place and take someone with you.

We'd definitely second that advice, NorthernLurker.

And, Pinot, it might help to read this advice from Hecate that we quote in our Talk Guidelines:

"If you think the person is not real, you don't have to post - nobody has a gun at your head! If you suspect the person is false and trying to hurt, or get money, tell MNHQ! How terrible if genuine people - people in trouble, people at the end of their tether - come here as their last hope for some help and advice, are savaged and go off again, feeling terrible and that they don't have anywhere left to turn to?"

MNHQ

HelenMumsnet · 20/02/2012 15:04

@Tmesis

I really don't think Soupy's comment was a personal attack at all. Granted, I also think that he ought to take her advice but I wouldn't see it as a personal attack even if it were directed at me.

'Fraid to say it is a personal attack (the "bog off" bit). We're quite clear about that.

MNHQ

HelenMumsnet · 20/02/2012 15:15

@Tmesis

So "Oh FFS get a grip or head off to another website if you don't like this one." would have been OK?

Well, tbh, "get a grip" could be read as a personal attack, too - espesh in combination with the rest of the post.

May I respectfully suggest "If you don't like it here, maybe you should post on another site?"

MNHQ

HelenMumsnet · 20/02/2012 15:16

@StarlightDicKenzie

It's usually when you have been following a thread for a bit and then suddenly find yourself going 'oh god, NOW WHAT?' with impatience or where you see a juicy thread title designed to make maximum impact imo.

And that's when you Report, yes, Starlight?

MNHQ

HelenMumsnet · 20/02/2012 15:18

@MaryZ

If we all get too polite...
MNHQ

HelenMumsnet · 20/02/2012 15:20

@hathorinareddress

I do think a good "fuck off" delivered with aplomb should still be allowed though

And I don't like that it's not anymore

We love aplomb but not with "fuck off" attached.

And we never have. Our Guidelines haven't changed (in essence) for a decade.

MNHQ

HelenMumsnet · 20/02/2012 15:56

@hathorinareddress

So if I posted "Fuck off you cunt" it would be deleted on the grounds of the "fuck off" and not the "you cunt"?

No it would be deleted on the grounds of it being a personal attack. The sweariness of it doesn't matter.

So...

Fuck off, HelenMumsnet... is a personal attack

HelenMumsnet, you are an idiot.... is a personal attack

HelenMumsnet, you are ugly... is a personal attack

HelenMumsnet, the way you're trying to explain what a personal attack is is fucking rubbish ... is NOT a personal attack (though not very civilised)

MNHQ

HelenMumsnet · 20/02/2012 16:17

@MardyBra

I know. How do you think I should phrase that on my CV, Mardy?

MNHQ

HelenMumsnet · 20/02/2012 16:37

@mrsreplicant

There needs to be a full equal opportunities stylee appeal system against deletions.

And warnings need to go to a tribunal.

Only if I can wear a wig and use an actual

MNHQ

HelenMumsnet · 20/02/2012 16:37

@wannaBe

I have in the past reported messages on the grounds they were personal attacks (and tbh it has to be pretty bad for me to report) only to be told that "while we agree it's a personal attack, we don't feel it's appropriate to delete it at this stage because of other content or the post" or some such.

Really?

MNHQ

HelenMumsnet · 21/02/2012 11:19

@hathorinareddress

And a troll would never have a strike out pointy bracket fail either

Grin Blush

Erm, we're a bit concerned this thread is turning into a "how to troll successfully" beginners' guide. We don't want to have to to delete this thread but we may have to if it carries on in this vein. Hope you all understand...

MNHQ

HelenMumsnet · 21/02/2012 11:38

@hathorinareddress

Helen - oh flip that's not what I meant I just meant I'd made an idiot of myself with my pointy bracket/bolding fail

Blush

I know, hathor, but yours was the one post I could "quote" without drawing too much attention to troll tips, iyswim

MNHQ

HelenMumsnet · 21/02/2012 11:39

@Thumbwitch

Mary, that's actually why I think that one was so funny - because it was an extreme form of real bridezilla types! Grin

Agreed, intention is a big part of it. And getting people's emotional involvement going is never good.

HelenMN - please don't delete the entire thread, just the comments that talk about "how to spot trolls" - no point throwing the baby out with the bathwater, is there? Wink

OK, but we'll need those who posted about "how to spot trolls" to report their own posts to us for withdrawal please.

We have no other grounds for deletion really, do we?

MNHQ

RowanMumsnet · 21/02/2012 11:57

[quote lissielou]starlight, I have never thought you were a troll. in fact, 98% of posters, I believe wholeheartedly. however, there is just something that gets me Hmming. a gut feeling that wont go away no matter how much I quash it. and whenever I see a thread by them I get a knot in my stomach. I make deals with myself "if this happens, I might mention to another poster with a better trolldar that I am having doubts" "if this happens I will email HQ" "If this happens I will comment on their thread"

Please, please, please - report to us, as soon as you have any Hmming or gut feelings at all.

We don't mind people being completely and utterly wrong - honest. We don't hold it against you or have MNHQ mugshots of 'people who are forever calling troll'.

We are properly, genuinely grateful for each report. The more you tell us - even assuming that some of the reports will be mistaken - the more likely it is that we'll be able to deal with the people who really are trolling.

MNHQ

RowanMumsnet · 21/02/2012 11:58

Oh, me quote facility went awry

MNHQ

RebeccaMumsnet · 22/02/2012 10:31

@hathorinareddress

I've asked HQ for an explanation for my deletion on the other thread, but I'm copying part of my post, as I think it's relevant

"I don't believe my post broke guidelines, otherwise we aren't allowed to defend ourselves - aggressive posters with an agenda can throw out accusations of trollhunting and those to whom the accusation is made cannot defend themselves, which isn't fair."

Hi hathorinareddress

The posts that were removed, were removed for troll hunting or the implication that the OP was/is a troll.

By all means report 'aggressive posters with an agenda' to us and we will take a look but we do ask that you don't troll hunt on the boards.

In your previous post you asked 'How is it troll hunting to say "there are inconsistencies in your posts and you are drip feeding" when that is the case?'

This is troll hunting. We ask that you report inconsistencies and/or dripfeeding to us rather than shout 'troll' on the thread. If you are wrong then folks can and do get hurt, if you are right then the troll is getting all the lovely attention that they crave.

Please please keep reporting, we do look at everyone.

MNHQ

RebeccaMumsnet · 22/02/2012 10:34

Pag Sad and what Maryz said

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