How important is Further Maths for science A levels?

[Blu]

DS, Yr 10, is doing well at school, predicted a row of As and A* and the equivalent in new money.
He is very keen on the sciences and plans science A levels, and some sort of biochemistry degree, maybe.
However he is losing confidence in Maths and while he is doing well in 'regular maths' he thinks he is doing badly at Further Maths - the pace is fast as they are doing both GCSEs in the same time as one.
He thinks if he does badly in this terms's test he should drop Further Maths.
I am not sure if this is a confidence thing, or an ability thing.
Or how important further maths would be to his future options?
And whether we should get some outside support?
Or whether it would be better to drop Further Maths and be more sure of a top mark for regular maths?

Last year they had a terrible maths teacher (now left the school....), very few of the class met (top set) their targets and he kept up by teaching himself from the internet.

[catslife]

noblegiraffe Your point about drop-our rates is a good one.
It looks as if dds school do a pre-testing session for pupils in Maths before they start the course to make sure they have the necessary Maths skills.

[Angelto5]

My ds(17) is in yr 12 doing the three sciences (A Level) & just recently got an A on a test in physics beating his peers who are taking maths A level.

He did want to do maths at A level but they thought it would be too much.

[OhYouBadBadKitten]

I think my worry about not doing maths but doing the three sciences is that it will limit your choice of degree. Certainly physics and many engineering degrees would be very hard to get on to.

[Blu]

So do people usually do 4 A levels: 3 sciences and maths? Or3 sciences and maths?

I can see I am going to have to get my ArtsGrad brain round this!

[OhYouBadBadKitten]

They used to, I don't know what will happen now though as our local giant sixth form only allows four a levels exceptionally. What does your ds want to do at uni?

[Molio]

TalkinPeace that's not true that students will struggle. One of my DS's took physics with sciences and history but no maths to A2 and got a high A*, another did the same alongside three humanities and never struggled in the least and got an A and a DD took physics to AS alongside three humanities and also got an A. Plenty don't struggle, it's a myth.

[Blu]

OhYouBadKitten: maybe chemistry, or biochemical sciences? But I think he is interested in physics too but realises that physics becomes more maths based.

[Blu]

He's only 14.
Uni choices become a factor so soon!

[sendsummer]

At his stage I would focus on trying to tackle his difficulties in maths if possible with outside support, this may only be a blip due to a downward spiral of poor teaching and loss in confidence rather than insufficient ability. He does n't need to choose his A level subjects for quite some time.

However in general, somebody who is likely to struggle with A level maths would n't be a candidate for a physics or engineering degree, would find quite a few modules of a chemistry degree very tough but would be mainly fine for biology and biochemistry. The main use of maths for the latter is in data analysis (so not especially difficult and help is often available) rather than needed for understanding concepts.
With the possible restrictions to three A levels an interesting question is what would be the best third subject out of physics and maths for somebody wanting to do biology or biochemistry at university assuming they were able and interested enough to do either. I think there would be pluses on both sides or indeed for a subject like geography.

[sendsummer]

Just to add that in these debates about whether high grades in A level physics or even chemistry are achievable without A level maths (independently from degree choices) I think it is important to differentiate tthose students with the natural ability to do maths A level from those students who would find maths A level hard. The former can compensate and understand the more maths based topics, the latter will struggle.

[Blu]

Sendsummer: I agree about geography. If only he hadn't dropped it in favour of history for GCSE....

[MigGril]

I'm not sure what the point of him doing A level physics would be of and not going to do maths. He would probably rule himself out of any physics bases courses buy done this. University will happy take students with just maths at A level but not physics. My university approach was we can easily teach you the physics is harder to catch up on the maths.

So he should think very carefully about not doing maths at a level as it could seriously limit his university course choice.

And could even this being the case for some other science course to, maths can be quite import and I'd think you would struggle at university without a higher level of maths.

[MigGril]

Although I don't think you need the higher GCSE a good normal one would be fine. They do a lot in the standard circulumum as it is.

[noblegiraffe]

If he's doing 3 sciences and isn't allowed to take maths as a 4th, does his school offer the new Core Maths AS? It's a two year course designed to be taken alongside 3 A-levels and is for students who will need some maths at uni but either don't have the ability or the capacity to take the full A-level.

A-level would be preferable in this situation but Core would be better than no maths.

[sendsummer]

MigGril a grounding in physics can be useful in certain aspects of biochemistry and biology even if it is only to better understand the instrumentation. Maths for scientists modules or extra classes in these courses are offered by many universities but usually there is no second chance for physics when only done to GCSE.

[Blu]

Good question, noblegiraffe, I wil ask about the AS. Glad I am finding all this out now, I thought it was pretty standard just to do the 3 science A levels, as it was back in ye olden dayes of my youth.

[sendsummer]

I think noblegiraffe's option is a very good compromise but I know of several schools at least that won't be offering it.

[swingofthings]

DD and I have been told that there is a massive gap between Maths GCSEs and Maths A levels and that many pupils who got easy As at GCSEs really struggle to get even a C at A levels. DD intends to take Maths at A levels (with Biology and Chemistry) and was told that doing Further Maths would really help her adjust as the curriculum is the start of the A level one.

She is expected an A/A at Further Maths, but indeed, she says herself that although it is much more difficult and she can only do so much of it, you only have to get a few right answers to do well so she's learnt to go quickly over the questions and do those she can do first before concentrating on harder ones. It seems to work as got A on the two mock exams she's done so far.