How important is Further Maths for science A levels?

[Blu]

DS, Yr 10, is doing well at school, predicted a row of As and A* and the equivalent in new money.
He is very keen on the sciences and plans science A levels, and some sort of biochemistry degree, maybe.
However he is losing confidence in Maths and while he is doing well in 'regular maths' he thinks he is doing badly at Further Maths - the pace is fast as they are doing both GCSEs in the same time as one.
He thinks if he does badly in this terms's test he should drop Further Maths.
I am not sure if this is a confidence thing, or an ability thing.
Or how important further maths would be to his future options?
And whether we should get some outside support?
Or whether it would be better to drop Further Maths and be more sure of a top mark for regular maths?

Last year they had a terrible maths teacher (now left the school....), very few of the class met (top set) their targets and he kept up by teaching himself from the internet.

[swingofthings]

DD and I have been told that there is a massive gap between Maths GCSEs and Maths A levels and that many pupils who got easy As at GCSEs really struggle to get even a C at A levels. DD intends to take Maths at A levels (with Biology and Chemistry) and was told that doing Further Maths would really help her adjust as the curriculum is the start of the A level one.

She is expected an A/A at Further Maths, but indeed, she says herself that although it is much more difficult and she can only do so much of it, you only have to get a few right answers to do well so she's learnt to go quickly over the questions and do those she can do first before concentrating on harder ones. It seems to work as got A on the two mock exams she's done so far.

[sendsummer]

I think noblegiraffe's option is a very good compromise but I know of several schools at least that won't be offering it.

[Blu]

Good question, noblegiraffe, I wil ask about the AS. Glad I am finding all this out now, I thought it was pretty standard just to do the 3 science A levels, as it was back in ye olden dayes of my youth.

[sendsummer]

MigGril a grounding in physics can be useful in certain aspects of biochemistry and biology even if it is only to better understand the instrumentation. Maths for scientists modules or extra classes in these courses are offered by many universities but usually there is no second chance for physics when only done to GCSE.

[noblegiraffe]

If he's doing 3 sciences and isn't allowed to take maths as a 4th, does his school offer the new Core Maths AS? It's a two year course designed to be taken alongside 3 A-levels and is for students who will need some maths at uni but either don't have the ability or the capacity to take the full A-level.

A-level would be preferable in this situation but Core would be better than no maths.

[MigGril]

Although I don't think you need the higher GCSE a good normal one would be fine. They do a lot in the standard circulumum as it is.

[MigGril]

I'm not sure what the point of him doing A level physics would be of and not going to do maths. He would probably rule himself out of any physics bases courses buy done this. University will happy take students with just maths at A level but not physics. My university approach was we can easily teach you the physics is harder to catch up on the maths.

So he should think very carefully about not doing maths at a level as it could seriously limit his university course choice.

And could even this being the case for some other science course to, maths can be quite import and I'd think you would struggle at university without a higher level of maths.

[Blu]

Sendsummer: I agree about geography. If only he hadn't dropped it in favour of history for GCSE....

[sendsummer]

Just to add that in these debates about whether high grades in A level physics or even chemistry are achievable without A level maths (independently from degree choices) I think it is important to differentiate tthose students with the natural ability to do maths A level from those students who would find maths A level hard. The former can compensate and understand the more maths based topics, the latter will struggle.

[sendsummer]

At his stage I would focus on trying to tackle his difficulties in maths if possible with outside support, this may only be a blip due to a downward spiral of poor teaching and loss in confidence rather than insufficient ability. He does n't need to choose his A level subjects for quite some time.

However in general, somebody who is likely to struggle with A level maths would n't be a candidate for a physics or engineering degree, would find quite a few modules of a chemistry degree very tough but would be mainly fine for biology and biochemistry. The main use of maths for the latter is in data analysis (so not especially difficult and help is often available) rather than needed for understanding concepts.
With the possible restrictions to three A levels an interesting question is what would be the best third subject out of physics and maths for somebody wanting to do biology or biochemistry at university assuming they were able and interested enough to do either. I think there would be pluses on both sides or indeed for a subject like geography.

[Blu]

He's only 14.
Uni choices become a factor so soon!

[Blu]

OhYouBadKitten: maybe chemistry, or biochemical sciences? But I think he is interested in physics too but realises that physics becomes more maths based.

[Molio]

TalkinPeace that's not true that students will struggle. One of my DS's took physics with sciences and history but no maths to A2 and got a high A*, another did the same alongside three humanities and never struggled in the least and got an A and a DD took physics to AS alongside three humanities and also got an A. Plenty don't struggle, it's a myth.

[OhYouBadBadKitten]

They used to, I don't know what will happen now though as our local giant sixth form only allows four a levels exceptionally. What does your ds want to do at uni?

[Blu]

So do people usually do 4 A levels: 3 sciences and maths? Or3 sciences and maths?

I can see I am going to have to get my ArtsGrad brain round this!

[OhYouBadBadKitten]

I think my worry about not doing maths but doing the three sciences is that it will limit your choice of degree. Certainly physics and many engineering degrees would be very hard to get on to.

[Angelto5]

My ds(17) is in yr 12 doing the three sciences (A Level) & just recently got an A on a test in physics beating his peers who are taking maths A level.

He did want to do maths at A level but they thought it would be too much.

[catslife]

noblegiraffe Your point about drop-our rates is a good one.
It looks as if dds school do a pre-testing session for pupils in Maths before they start the course to make sure they have the necessary Maths skills.

[Bunbaker]

Thank you catslife

[catslife]

I think your dd should be OK bunbaker as she has reached a very good standard for her iGCSE. My experience is that the students who struggle most with the Maths components for Chemistry and Biology A levels are those who only just scraped a grade B at GCSE or even obtained a grade C. (Most sixth forms require a minimum grade B at GCSE for taking Science A level).
Many sixth forms now offer Maths support for pupils taking a Science subject but not Maths so this is something else you can check out.

[Bunbaker]

"those taking biology struggle on large parts of it without maths"

DD hates maths and absolutely does not want to do maths A level, but she wants to do biology. She got an A* for IGCSE maths that she took in January this year. Will this be sufficient?

She will start year 12 in September BTW.

[noblegiraffe]

Having said that dds school don't offer GCSE Further (or Additional) Maths and the sixth form still obtain very good results for A level.

It's not A-level results so much that the further maths helps with, the kids who make it to Y13 are probably going to do well. What further maths helps with is reducing the number of kids who fail AS or drop out before they even get there.

[AtticusFlinch]

A year ago, I took Physics and Maths A-Level - the maths really helps the mechanics part of physics enormously and vice versa, I would have struggled without doing both. Not doing Further Maths A-Level or GCSE wasn't an issue for me though. In your son's situation, I would stick with it for now but keep an eye on things. To make the jump between GCSE and A-Level it's the basics that you need to be really solid on, like expanding out brackets, factorisation, transformation of graphs and vectors (if they're still done at GCSE). People in my year who struggled with them at GCSE fell behind quickly at A-Level.

[catslife]

For the new linear A level Chemistry, the level of maths required is slightly more difficult than the old syllabus being taken by current Y13s. So A level maths could be more of an advantage.
Having said that dds school don't offer GCSE Further (or Additional) Maths and the sixth form still obtain very good results for A level.
For biological Sciences at uni, statistics is most significant part of Maths required whereas for Physics it's Pure Maths and mechanics. So it's not imo quite correct to say that you don't really need Maths for biology.
If your son is considering a Science degree (even Biochemistry) Maths A level would be an advantage. Students can usually apply without A level Maths, but then usually have to take a Maths course at uni to reach the equivalent standard to A level. So if they are capable it's better to take A level Maths in sixth form.

[Leeds2]

Fwiw, my DD is doing A Level (A2 this year) biology and chemistry on the basis of an A* maths at IGCSE. She did not do Further Maths at IGCSE, and is not doing Maths at A Level.

Think it might be different if she were doing Physics.