Does anyone else NOT do BIOMETRIC payment system thingy?

[Rooners]

We've just got the welcome pack for ds1's new school. In it is a form explaining about the fingeer print recognition thing they are hoping to bring in this September.

I have read all the guff and still feel funny about it. I didn't sign the form agreeing, did some research and found that schools generally (must) have an alternative system in place so it isn't compulsory.

So thought this was Ok only to get a bit of a hard sell phone call from the school this morning which if anything has pushed me further from signing it than I already was.

The person had NO IDEA whether they had an alternative and if so what it was.

I just wanted to canvass opinion really as I feel like a freak, not sure why it makes me so uncomfortable except that ds1 is fairly likely to lose his fingers if that's what he needs to have with him.

This is my general understanding, I may be wrong; (a relative used to work on fingerprint recognition systems):

They don't store the actual fingerprint.

They turn the fingerprint into a number based on the identifying features, and store the number.
Then when the pupil presents their fingerprint, it gets turned into a number again and the numbers are compared.

I think you should be much more worried about facebook / instagram / general internet etc. than this.

So much better now the children don't bring money to school. They don't store the fingerprint or share the data. I don't understand your reservations?

Neitehr do I, Sweep. I think it's partly the pressure they are putting on us to agree to it. Which may not be the most logical standpoint obvs.

thanks Teen - why do I need to be worried about the internet?

If you are worried about a fingerprint recognition system, then the risk to your teen/pre-teen secondary child is much greater on the internet.

Fingerprints - risk fingerprint is stored somewhere (which I don't think it is) so 'the state' or 'other undesirables' could somehow get hold of it and ... do what?

Internet in general - your child gives away all sorts of identifiable information leading them to be at risk from paedophiles or other undesirables; your child accesses sites unsuitable for their age (e.g. porn); your child accesses sites encouraging behaviour you would rather they didn't (e.g. pro-anorexia / self harming sites for girls); your child is bullied by school pupils and can't even escape it at home because it continues via facebook etc etc.

Hmm yes aware of most of those, thank you for elaborating, and it does concern me, and I monitor it to a certain extent. That will get harder.

I'm not concerned about his fingerprint being used or stored by someone to use against him in some way, I don't reckon on that. But I think it is the idea of him being recognised by a machine in such a personal manner.

It is a bit reminiscent of the whole microchipping of children thing, for me. In fact now I think about it I can't see much of a difference.

Sorry hope last reply didn't sound snarky - I was genuinely thanking you - and you're right it is a minefield. But I just read it back and it sounded like I was being snippy with you. Didn't express myself very well!

Didn't sound sarky at all.

Internet access on phones? Did I mention that?

erk. That's enough, I'm going to home educate again...

Really can't understand what you're worried about - it's a brilliant system IMO - no card to lose, you can't get mugged for your dinner money by the school bullies - ds2's school uses it and I really wish my other dc's schools used it too

Ds is just starting secondary, in our info it states if you are not happy they will be given a four digit pin code that the student is responsible for. In other words if some one learns it and spends all their money the school can't do anything.

Oh crikey, that sounds really insecure. Which makes me think that actually, they are giving us a bit of a hobson's choice so we agree to the bio thing. NOT happy if that's the only alternative.

I haven't heard back yet. I don't think they actually have an alternative at this stage! Oops. I'm that parent now aren't I.

What system would YOU prefer? Cash? PIN? Card?

"reminiscent of the whole microchipping of children thing, for me. In fact now I think about it I can't see much of a difference."

Microchipping involves having a foreign body surgically inserted under your skin. Checking fingerprints doesn't.

Whatever the alternative system is, it's going to be less secure -- because the reason for introducing fingerprint scanning is that it's the most secure option. No one can steal your DS's fingers; no one can find his fingers lying around the place and get them mixed up with their own fingers; someone else's purchases can't get rung up against your DS's fingers.

(Can I add "Internet access on other children's phones" to TeenAndTween's list? DS doesn't have a mobile yet but I know that some of his friends do -- and I have absolutely no control at all over what he might do with them, or even an ability to monitor it (so far, I'm pretty sure, nothing. But longer term?))

You are just being a ludite.Your Dc leave thousands of their fingerprints everywhere, every day .I think it's great, no money no card to lose

I think a card system would probably be top of my list.

But they don't use any of this at primary, parents just pay the school directly, and the child is given a dinner - so why is this not applicable in secondary?

Why is the onus suddenly on the child to prove they are entitled to a meal? Sorry if I'm being daft, I am new to all this.

and fair point about the microchip, but the principle is similar isn't it. I can imagine a lot of folk saying 'it's great, my child is instantly trackable' - I mean I can see the benefits even for that.

Still doesn't make it comfortable, to me anyway.

Well they only serve one or two meal at primary and everyone pays the same. Secondaries have cafeterias so some kids will buy soup and roll for a quid, others a full meal, drink, pud, cookie and a bacon roll at break yes you ds costing a fiver.

Cards can be lost and the child goes hungry, and cards can be stolen and bills run up before the card holder realises.

DCs school had a card system - the cards got broken, lost, stolen, washed, cracked, you name it
cash leads to theft

the finger prints are GREAT
the kids get their food
FSM kids have their "finger" topped up for free
kids with health issues are stopped from buying certain foods
parents can be shown the list of what the kids bought
the queues move quicker

secondary schools have up to 2500 kids : its not like primary

Do you use a Loyalty card at the supermarket?
Or a credit card?
Or an Oyster card

Get real and work WITH the technology not pretend it does not exist

Oh I see, thanks for explaining. That does make it more difficult then doesn't it.

I suppose I feel a little wary of a cashless system in the sense that everyone is coming up with the same point about cash being stolen, potentially - what sort of school is it where people are stealing my child's money?

I wouldn't want to have to use my fingerprint to be recognised by a machine. I wouldn't do it in a shop. I prefer to carry my money or card and try not to lose it, but then I guess children are as likely to lose these things as to have them pinched.

I get that point totally. Just this is a whole new level of complicated to my simple primary-school-adjusted brain. I don't think I want him to go to secondary school if it's like this.

You can monitor what they've eaten with a fingerprint or card. With cash you'll never know they had pizza and a donut every day. ds again

'Get real and work WITH the technology not pretend it does not exist'

Yes I agree with you on that sentiment. I just don't like the pressure I'm being subjected to by the school, it makes me feel weird.

I do use a debit card in shops. But it doesn't involve my presenting a part of my body. That to me feels different. It's as though I, or my son, can't be trusted to say our name and ask only for what we have paid for/are entitled to.

It feels like a presumption of guilt in a sense. It's such a perfect recognition systen that it feels as though no one is willing to give us even the smallest benefit of the doubt. We need to prove our identity beyond question.

Does this make any sense? Or am I talking gibberish?

It's fast. That's why schools like it. No fiddling around for cards/money - less time in the queue.

LOL titchy, that's certainly what ds1 would have as well! He eats everything that isn't nailed down and some things that are.

Rooners
What has "presumption of guilt" and "benefit of the doubt" got to do with filling the stomachs of 1500 hungry teenagers in the shortest time possible?

Starting to understand it's the sheer volume of children that's the issue, isn't it. It isn't like everyone who works there will know who each child is I suppose.

I think they just do it on face recognition at primary - they know all the children, and who normally has a hot dinner etc.

And yes the cost being the same. Maybe secondaries don't want to standardise the amount you're allowed every day for a set price - I can see why they want to give the children more choice than that.