Do you think a long term relationship can survive when there’s love but no trust?

[SomethingImaginative]

That’s basically the whole question. We’ve been together about 15 years and have children together but they just constantly lie. Sometimes little things just to be right in an argument or something but the main thing is money.
No worries about cheating or anything like that but financial lies. He comes out with stories of how he’s not been paid because the one above them hasn’t been paid so they can’t pay him until they’re paid or he’ll say I’m getting paid from this job on x date and then that date comes and goes and there’s no money and then they’ll be a story about how this happened so now it’s y date.
Maybe that could happen but it’s the same story multiple times across multiple jobs. Once could be bad luck but multiple times you must be the unluckiest guy alive.
He is self employed in a trade so they’re all individual jobs rather than working paye at a company if it sounds a bit of a weird set up. It’s got to the point now when I just don’t believe a word he says.
We get along fine in other aspects we have fun together make each other laugh and are affectionate but then another story will come up and I just think I don’t believe you. Because we get along in all other aspects though and seem happy day to day how can I tear apart our family? I just don’t know what to do anymore.
Sorry if it’s all just a bit of a ramble I’m not the best at putting things into words but I know I’m not happy in this moment but then he’ll come home and he’s offering to make dinner and we’re having a joke as a family with the kids and laughing and i think maybe I should just let it go

Can you have an honest conversation about the cause of the lies? Does your partner have an addiction, say gambling, and does not want to admit this and so just lies about what money has been received? Or is he just a really poor businessman - in which case could he seek employment, because he is always going to struggle with being self-employed.
I think letting it go would be a mistake, it would be better to understand exactly what is going on with your partners finances, if he is getting into debt then you want to act as early as possible.

Personally I coudnt make it work. I would find unsettling and uncertain. Can you understand and find what why he lies? Does the money turn up later or not at all? How can you financially plan for the year (or your future) under these circumstances?!?

I would try and understand but would insist on full transparency otherwise I couldn’t go on.

If there is no trust, there is no relationship. And you do not believe a word he says. If it’s unsettling for you it’s going to be unsettling for your children as well.

I am sorry for me I could not stick living like that. That is something I would barely put up with as a housemate. I certainly would not be in a relationship with someone lying to me.

I would wonder does he have an addiction or is claiming that he is working when he has no job.

And he’s the one who has done this damage to his family unit by lying constantly in the first place.

Would you want your kids to be in a relationship like this when they are adults : no you would not and you’d want better for them.

One of the most infuriating things is that even when they’re caught in a lie they will double down and insist that I’m wrong and they’re telling the truth so having a conversation always ends up in a massive argument and nothings resolved.
I don’t know where the money goes he always wants to look good to everyone else and everyone say what a great guy he is so he has in the past lent money that should have been paying our bills to friends and then I’m left scrambling trying to make up the missing money. He also likes to go out to the pub and will say his friend is treating him when it turns out that’s not true they just lend him money that he then has to pay back and he’ll prioritise paying them back over pie household.
I’m a part time minimum wage worker due to our children’s needs so it’s not easy for me to find extra money and I’m now in a lot of credit card debt for all the christmases and birthdays and sometimes just everyday expenses like food shops or uniform I’ve had to cover.
I can make the minimum payments each month but I’m going to be in debt for years but he never seems to go without or struggle it’s always me picking up the pieces and I think that’s a big part of my frustration.
For example this month when he’s apparently not been paid that’s just the end of it. It’s apparently not his fault and there’s nothing he can do so that’s that. I’m then having to cover everything putting the food shop on my credit card and a couple of small bills have bounced back that I’ll now have to double up next month as I don’t get paid until the end of the month and there’s no overtime available this month

No, I don't think it can.

I came up with a theory the other night when I couldn't sleep.

Love, in its most basic form, is mostly about trust. There's lots of different types of love. Romantic love, familial love, parental love, friendship etc.

They all have different aspects to them, but they're all iterations around the same base. My sleep addled mind for some reason decided to come up the analogy of that base being pasta.
So romantic love is a nice spicy arrabiata
Familial love is a Spaghetti Bolognaise, warm and comforting but some times messy.
Friendship is a pasta salad, lighter than some of the other dishes, but full of goodness that you need
And the love from a child towards their parent is a slightly snotty collage of their Mum that they've made in school, and brought home, where they've stuck on dried spaghetti to make her hair.

All very different things, but with the same core ingredient. That "base" of love. And its basically trust. Feeling loved by someone is feeling safe with them, feeling supported, feeling that they want the best for you. And loving someone is the act of wanting the other person to feel those things. Whether its my partner, my Mum, my daughter, my brother, or my friend. I love all these people in different ways, but its core, I want them to feel safe with me. I want them to feel like they can trust me.

Without trusting your partner @SomethingImaginative , how can you feel loved by him? You're missing the core component. Without the pasta, you've just got a plate of rapidly cooling sauce. (OK, so it's not a perfect metaphor!)

No way I could stay in a relationship with him given what you say in your follow up post. He is awful.

Have you looked into your entitlements if you leave him/throw him out.

Once the trust is gone the relationship is over. I tried for years to make it work but it got to the point that I couldnt believe a single word out of his mouth and it honestly drove me crazy. Peace of mind is the most important thing in this life. Youll never have that with a liar.

For me, no. I have had enough of the lies because if they lie about small pointless things, you can bet your bum they are lying about some big important things as well.

No I don’t.

I think trust is an absolute foundation for LTRs. One of the reasons for this is that to
thrive just generally as humans we need our stress levels to be stable. Living with someone you can’t trust means your stress levels spike on a regular basis because you’re always having to consider ‘is that a lie or not? If so what is he trying to hide?’. I’d find that so stressful and wouldn’t want to live like that.

The other evening DH met up with an ex colleague (female) for a drink because she was after some professional advice. Because I’m on Mumsnet a fair amount I know that it’s the sort of thing that could be a thread starter asking if there’s something going on. I tested my own thoughts about it and …nothing! In 37 years he’s never given me a moment’s concern and we trust each other. No raising of stress levels, no running it though a filter to see if it’s something to worry about, nothing. And I’m sure he’d say the same about me. Because of all that we can be ourselves at home, can properly relax and decompress knowing we fully trust the other person.

The other reason I don’t think it’s possible to carry on without trust is that personally I’d lose all respect for someone who wouldn’t tell me the truth/be trustworthy in his actions and without respect I couldn’t love someone. One of the things I love about DH is his integrity. He’s known for it both professionally and with our friends. I really respect the fact that he’s got a strong moral compass and that he wants to do the right thing even if sometimes that means doing a hard thing. It makes me love him more.

Doubling down is gaslighting. He isn't just lying to you, this is abuse.
Mine used to say things like "I didn't lie about as much as you thought I did" as if it was me who was at fault assuming he lied about things because I couldn't tell what was true or false by the end.

As pp say, you don't realise the mental strain this is putting you under (or maybe you do which is why you are seeking a way out) until it is over. I had an almost 6 month shut down where my body was trying to get out of fight/flight mode and struggling almost like an addict because I felt I needed the "highs" of figuring out his drama's all over again. It is a very very toxic cycle and one I was not prepared to put kids through.

Gently but firmly - no, not in this example. He's happy to risk your kids going hungry. It's not just the lying, this is financial abuse. He's happy for you to be drowning in debt. Are you married?

No, this is an unforgiveable way to treat the mother of your children, the person who is supposed to be your partner. If he was your business partner you'd be out of there, because he'd be embezzling the profits.

He is happy to keep pissing his money up a wall doing God knows what and lying about it, while you're up to your ears and drowning in debt? Bollocks to that, you would literally be better on your own with a bit of peace and consistency. I would seek professional help with your debt situation, someone else can advise on that better than me on who to get in touch with, and work out what the situation would be should you split. See a solicitor, then present him with your findings. He can try to argue with that but he won't get far.

I appreciate everyone taking the time to respond. I thought it might be easier to just make a new post than try and reply individually. No we’re not married initially because he didn’t want to get married but he does actually throw out things now like would you have my name if we got married and I think I wouldn’t marry you that would be another layer to untangle. Someone said about completely trusting their husband and being able to be themselves and someone else said about a similar partner and not knowing what’s true or false and the stress of it.
I am audhd so I do have a lot of ‘quirks’ I wasn’t diagnosed until an adult after all my children were and I thought hmm sounds familiar lol but he is the first person where I have really been myself and not ‘on’ if that makes sense so I don’t even really know how to word it or what I feel but like maybe he’s my person? I don’t really know how to explain it so it might not make any sense. It’s not even in a I’m madly in love with him way because I’m not sure if it’s part of the audhd or just me personally but I’ve never felt like omg I’m so in love and I’d be devastated if you left and sit in bed crying. I just kind of get on with things but I’m comfortable with him and I do like when he’s around.
Also I don’t know if I’m just scatter brained naturally or if it’s the adhd but I am really forgetful and disorganised so when he’s so adamant that he’s right that he told me he wouldn’t be paid until x date and that he said it would be x amount and I can’t reliably remember the conversation that I start doubting myself and think maybe I am wrong and doubt myself and that just adds to the frustration because I can’t even defend my position properly because I’ve forgotten half the facts.

Sorry I know that last one was an essay but just to add I’m not so forgetful that I’m wrong about the whole situation and you’re thinking oh she’s just forgotten and he said he wasn’t being paid this month 😂

I couldn't live with that tbh, I can't stand a liar, sometimes it feels even worse when they're small lies, makes me feel like the person thinks I'm some kind of fucking idiot

Sounds like an addict. I’d say if he could face up to whatever his problem is, be open with you, and take serious steps towards sorting it out then maybe you could have a future, although it sounds like the damage might already be done for trust to return. If he can’t even tell you what’s going on then you’re on your own with the stress of it if you stay with him. It does sound abusive.

I KNOW you shouldn’t have to, as he’s not a child, but can you try to encourage him to be honest?

Say you absolutely don’t care what the truth is, but you need to know, because him being dishonest is making you have serious thoughts about leaving him.

No. You can't do this. It's not possible.

Your title should read living with a liar!

He is not "your person"! He is bleeding you dry, leaving you indebted, not supporting your children and lying to you about it.
Would you want your DC to live with this in a partner?
Do you want this debt to grow and grow, and to be working min wage jobs into your 70s because you have nothing saved up?

You say you can be you without a mask with him.

But he doesn't feel the same. That's the main reason why he lies and gaslights you. He also can't be wrong and maybe there's a personality disorder involved.

But no, you need trust and emotional stability for a ltr to survive and you have neither with a constant liar who gaslights you. Plus, that's hell if you have kids, for them to know their dad is not someone they can trust.

He's manipulating you and making you feel you're the issue, for having an issue with his unreasonable behaviour.

You don't sound like you know which way is up. You're not married, what's your housing situation? Is the debt in your name only?

I had a partner with similar behaviours for 8 years. There were many "small" lies about money, but I ultimately ended it once I discovered a secret debt of over 10k. There's no way I could trust him to be honest, and without trust there's no sense of safety.