DS frighteningly angry towards his dad (ex) - how can I support?

[lurchersforever]

I'm increasingly concerned about ds's (19) relationship with his dad and I'm not sure what to do about it. I know their relationship is between the two of them and is not my concern, but I'm worried about the impact on ds, which very much is my concern.

They are very different people. Ex is wannabe musician/writer or, according to ds now, a 'bum'. He is late 50s and has never had a career and lives off benefits (has a medical condition and associated disability, but this has only developed the last decade, so isn't the reason he has no career), and freelance work/online teaching he can do from home. He pays nothing for the dc, which isn't their concern, but they are aware he never buys them anything for his place/school and they know I am the one who provides everything.

DS is a high-achiever and extremely driven and has expressed that he just cannot understand his dad or have any respect for him at all. That is the polite version. The way he has spoken about his dad this summer has just been horrible to hear, and I am no fan of ex. Stuff like he is a total waste of space, what's the point of him, he (ds) hopes ex knows that ds despises him and he would like to tell him that. Just really cruel stuff that cannot be healthy for ds to have inside of him and isn't how he is with others in general - he's kind, responsible and helpful.

While ex has always been very much in the dc's lives since we split 12 years ago, and we have done a roughly 80/20 split, there have been lots of occasions of him letting them down and doing gigs on his weekends so he didn't have them, going on holiday without them in term time, needing to see his family in another city etc etc. This has lessened as he and they have got older - ex doesn't do gigs anymore and the dc are easier to have now they are older - not that they were ever difficult kids really.

Ex has also let ds down with stuff like a sport he got ds into then wouldn't commit to helping him train/taking him to matches and left it to me, which was difficult as I know nothing about it and, as a teacher, taking him to games on week nights in term time was a nightmare and I often had to sit in the car marking and trying to occupy ds2, who hated this sport, leaving ds1 with no one rooting for him on the sidelines while everyone else seemed to have their dad there. For a while he cancelled weekend contact to train to be a coach in this sport, and then never actually did the coaching so ds never got any benefit from it. DS seems to have a lot of bitterness about this. DS1 has said that at the age of about 11 his dad decided he was no longer a child, while with ds2 he knew he had nothing in common with him so tried to compensate by doing things like getting Eras tickets costing £1k while ds1 never had anything like that spent on him, and ex would just take him to the cricket, which he would have gone to anyway without ds1 being there. Again, a lot of bitterness about that.

The latest thing is ex has a house which he bought outright from an inheritance a few years ago which obviously he hasn't got the money to maintain properly. He should have got a new-build or flat but he got a Victorian terrace and it now has a leaking roof. He had someone fix it but apparently they scammed him and ds1 was woken the other night by rain pouring in on him and it has made him livid. He was ranting to me about what an idiot his dad is, how pathetic to get scammed, etc etc. He was meant to be staying there last night but couldn't due to the roof but ex still wanted to give them tea and messaged ds1 when he was at mine asking what takeaway he wanted. This again set ds1 off - what a lazy loser having takeaways all the time, he does nothing so why can't he cook (ex is actually a good cook, when he cba) etc etc. The anger was something else. He went for the takeaway but was back at mine within 90 mins so must have just eaten it and left. Ex has noticed he is off with him and is asking ds2 about it, which is putting him in the middle.

It seems to be such a mess and I don't know what to do. I read all these threads about dc cutting off from one parent at this age but ds1 doesn't seem to want that but has this awful animosity towards his dad. I think he should maybe stop staying overnight and just go there (when not at uni) for tea a couple of times per week, or meet him at cricket even when it's on, but he seems reluctant to make these changes and I know ex would resist, but they aren't kids anymore.

I also want ds to have counselling when he's back at uni - he is very hard on himself and says he's afraid of ending up like his dad even though he's nothing like him and I think this needs unpicking, but he says he hasn't got time and it's stupid.

Sorry this is so long and waffly - any advice would be great.

I’m sorry to read this OP. As an outsider, it looks like your Ex is just reaping the results of decades of poor performance as a dad. Your son obviously feels incredibly let down, and who can blame him? The ranting is a sign of the deep hurt that he has felt for most of his life.

Rather than punishing him for feeling his feelings, you should probably accept that your Ex has wrecked his relationship with his son and allow your son to achieve some distance from his deadbeat dad. Later in life he will need counselling to process the hurt feelings he has faced.

I agree wirh PP. I think you need to support DS in establishing the relationship snd boundaries that he wants to have with his dad. There is a lot of anger there and tbh it feels fairly justifiable and I think you can simply say to Ds that it is understandable that he feels that way and suggest he accesses some of the counselling support at uni. Otherwise you can say to him that he's welcome to spend as much or little time at dad's that he wants and that's that really.

Your ex has been a shit father. Your DS is coming to terms with it.

There is nothing more captivating to a teenager than fully justifiable rage, and let's face it he's got his dad bang to rights.

Is your son's anger at his father tipping over into other relationships, or changing his view to life more broadly? I'd choose my moment and broach this specifically rather than a bland "don't be angry, it's not nice" - on the flip side, we are all fallible human beings, and we sometimes fail at the standard our children set for us.

Has he said what kind of relationship he wants with his dad? Or is he just profoundly frustrated by his actions and how they impact his life? It's an important lesson to learn that you can't change people, and coming to terms with family who have very different values and priorities to you. Could this maybe be explored in family therapy?

I think your DS has every right to be absolutely furious with his dad. He's been a shit father and is a shit role model. Recognising that seems a necessary part of your DS's development, as he becomes a man himself. He may be grieving for the kind of father he missed out on.

I'd give him the space to hold and express his anger. Maybe suggest physical outlets too like sport. And the counselling seems a good idea too.

I had a deadbeat dad but I was never angry about it, I'd describe it as neutral and now I've not seen him in a very long time. I'm disappointed he didn't pay CMS and put my mum in financial difficulties and I'm disappointed he didn't want to spend time with me but I don't really have any other feelings - at some stage I must have just accepted that was my reality? Can you figure out where his anger is coming from? He definitely needs a heathier less stressful way to process how he's feeling and it sounds like counselling when he's back at Uni is a good idea. I think your DS is going to have accept his dads limitations, he doesn't have to like them but he needs to accept he isn't going to change for his own sanity.

Your ds has every right to think the things he does about his dead beat father. I would encourage him to startbprocdssing this and moving on rather than ranting as he clearly on some level is still waiting/hoping for change, or, at the very least, acknowledgement and accountability from his father, which he is not going to get. And working through that, and accepting it, can be really hard.

You trying to mitigate or excuse or downplay his father's behaviour will not be helping. Frankly, its gas lighting. He knows perfectly well his father is pathetic so you or any one else saying things like, "he tries" or "he means wrll" or similar bullshit wont be helping.

At 19, particularly witj a father who is not, and has not supported him, it is perfectly reasonable for your ds to say he doesn't want to spend time with him, or to go over there.

Basically, stop trying to push a relationship on your ds rhat is not good for him and that he doesn't want. Rather help him to accept the reality of who his father is and to either choose to ealk away completely or to maintain a relationship while understanding the boundaries of what that can be.

Give your ds a big hug. Tell him you're always on his side and are here if he needs to rant. Validate his feelings. This isn't something you can fix. Your ex made his bed.

Your son is right though, isn't he?

He is speaking as he finds.

You don't need to do anything other than listen. I would almost make it into a bit of a thing where you can sigh and laugh about some of his dad's terrible decisions (without being unkind about him).

Your Ex WAS a shit parent, and your DS is RIGHT.

Never undermine your DS’s feelings. Really listen to him and acknowledge his feelings. Don’t white wash over them. They are real and should never be confused with excuses for your EX.

The only way your DS will heal is by facing the truth.

How come your EX is do demanding of him now to sleep over? He has absolutely no right to demand anything of him. That ship has sailed. He has reaped what he has sewn.

You can’t paper over this. Your DS is right and needs to be heard by you and by counselling.

So what if his darling father starts to hear the truth. It is the truth!!

Your son is right, why are you trying to convince him otherwise? He sounds like a waste of space in all areas

Your son sounds like he has a very sensible and realistic view of his dead beat dad. Why don't you share it?

I don't think I've said I don't share his view? I absolutely do share it but it's very unpleasant hearing ds talk in this way. However, I don't want to minimise his feelings as I completely accept they are valid.

I'm also not trying to force him to stay overnight and have said multiple times that maybe it is worth approaching contact in a different way and not doing overnights anymore and this is perfectly normal for people of his age, but ds seems resistant to that despite all his vitriol. He just says 'maybe' and then agrees to go overnight again and then tells me how pissed off he is about it and doesn't want to go.

I wish I could get him to agree to go to counselling but he is completely resistant to that too.

It sounds like his criticisms of his dad are fair enough and this is probably what he dad should hear to understand the impact of being so minimally involved in the parts of his son’s life that really mattered to him. I don’t think you need to do anything other than validate his feelings…because they are valid.

If you have the means, I would let him know you’d be happy to fund therapy if he wants to pursue it. It has to be driven and organised by him with a therapist of his choosing. It was incredibly beneficial to me, but at his age, I wouldn’t have been ready. It’s okay if he isn’t yet either.

It would be good if he could get a therapist but you can't make him go. However it might help you to think of this as part of a process DS is going through rather than as a new and permanent rage. He's not wrong is he, but he probably didn't allow himself to acknowledge that his dad was a bit of a dick until now. It's all part of separating from him and becoming an adult. Hopefully his rage will become a more realistic kind of acceptance/pity in time. Just let him be angry for now.

It might be unpleasant hearing him say extremely negative things about the man you chose as his father - I understand that - but he is entitled to feel like that and to vent.

I would be very frank with his father - unless DS asks you not to say anything. But if he’s fine with you responding . I’d give your ex a very frank explanation of why his son is angry with him.

Your focus needs to be on how DS will come through this in the future. He might just need an angry phase which he will come out the other side of. The worry is if he stays in this frame of mind, and his anger affects his progress and impacts on his future relationships. He might need some kind of professional help so that he does not become a very demanding father to any future DC, for example.

He definitely needs counseling, perhaps with a male therapist. As children, we depend on our parents and look up to them, especially fathers (due to patriarchy), so it's very disappointing and above all destabilising when a father turns out to have feet of clay.

Also, DS1 is looking at his father as a role model and obviously he's not anyone any kid would be proud of and would want to emulate. This is psychologically discombobulating. I was actually seriously worried for a long time that I would turn out like my selfish father, because I saw traits in him that I also had (and I looked like him). And I am female, it must be a lot harder for a male child with a crap father.

Like your son, I was also very angry with my father growing up. I often talked "to him" in my mirror, I would rage at him and pour scorn, say what I thought of him. It was my way of processing his harmful behaviour. I also realise now that I was practicing to walk away from my father, which I finally did when I was 39, when he again did something incredibly selfish and hurtful to someone I loved. I realised that keeping him in my life was not only constantly hurting and triggering me, it was also preventing me from being a present and devoted mother to my own children. It was time to put into practice what I had been training myself to do.

It's been 20 years and the old bugger is still alive at 90 and from all accounts, as selfish as ever.

I don't regret the estrangement. But it was really painful for about a year, I actually felt physical pain, a remorseless grinding in my stomach. Thought I had cancer, had lots of tests, all clear. It was grief.

It's a process. Now when I think back, I give that raging, hurt kid and young adult that I was a pat and cuddle, and I say thank you for fighting for decency and kindness.

Your son sounds like he has a lot of hurt and disappointment and a lot of processing to do. A counselor could help him, but of course he has to want that kind of help for it to be effective. I feel for him.

Ok, so you both agree your ex/his dad is a bad father and a pretty bad person.

you just don’t want to hear him rant about it.

he’s coming to terms with it. Not quickly, or pleasantly but this is the process of working through his feelings.

my son did the same with his dad. He felt a lot of grief for the relationship they could have had, and it took him a long time to stop trying.

my son for a good five years would arrange things with his dad, in the hope that things would change and his dad would start to care for him.

it takes a long time to accept that one of your parents just doesn’t care about you and step back and stop trying. Let him work that out himself.

Well he certainly sounds like a useless waste of space to me so clearly your son has the measure of him. It’s you who sounds completely blinkered by this grifter TBH OP

Is he first or second year at uni? All of mine from very loving and hands on family have gone through a patch of highlighting every wrong and repainting their childhood as damaging and deprived (the ones who have come out the other side now are horrified by their younger siblings doing exactly the same thing, and claim “they never said that”). If your XH is as you describe I think the whole thing would be magnified.

Poor kid and I can see how hard this must be for you @lurchersforever .

While your son is justified in holding the views he does, I think what you're saying is you are concerned of the impact of this anger is having on your DS. It sounds a classic case of drinking poison and expecting the other person to die, it won't help him at this level.

Would it be of any use to express concerns to your ex and suggest that he takes some steps to demonstrate responsibility? For example, he could put the house on the market and buy somewhere easier to maintain. He could arrange some activities with DS1 that show an interest in him.

He could show DS that he has plans for his future. How much of the anger is fear at being lumbered with his dad in future, do you think?

Thank you for sharing that @LouiseMadetheBestBroccoliPasta , I really appreciate the perspective from someone on ds's side of the experience.

@usererror99 I don't know how I've come across as blinkered about ex. I've set out exactly how he has been and I'm concerned about the impact of the anger on ds himself, rather than feeling sorry for ex. However, I think the responses are helping me see that I need to accept his need to express it like he is so I will be doing that going forwards.

And, yes, I do think being at uni has exacerbated this. He's somewhere very prestigious and is surrounded by wealthy peers whose families are all contacting friends and organising internships etc for them and meanwhile, he has ex with his leaky roof to contend with.

OP your sons dad was as checked out as mine. I got through it for specific reasons but when I say it destroyed my brother...it quite literally destroyed him. I see the same deep hurt in your son, and I totally understand 100% where he's coming from. I really do get it, and tbh how your son is expressing it is mild, compared to what could be happening.

I can say with all the certainty in the world that your son will never, ever be like his dad. He's already proved that in his nature and actions.

He has every right in the world to be this angry, even for me the anger I could feel at my dad for how he ruined my brother could be all consuming but now your son has to do some self coaching...how his dad has let him down is awful but hes never going to get better, so your son has to find a way to deal with it - anger will eat him up from the inside.

A strategy can help - maybe low or no contact for a few months, a letter to his dad during that time to express all the hurt and disappointment, then even no contact for as long as it takes after, whatever your son needs to move forward.

Just wanted to send solidarity, your son sounds like a lovely boy whp is going through understandable stages of grief for never having a decent dad and sounds like the anger stage is currently where hes at.

So I have a bit of a rubbish dad and it took me a lot longer for me to realise than your son. Im actually a bit emotional reading your post, as the fact he can see this so clearly at this age... thats quite special, really. On the other hand, its such a big thing to go through at such an important time in his life, so I feel for him.
Two things im going to say.
It took me many years of sadness and anger before I could talk about how I felt, and my mum tried to smooth things over, because she like you didnt want to see me distressed. My experience is that while this might have helped momentarily, and she had the best intentions, my anger had nowhere to go because I just learnt to suppress it and i was left with confusing feelings of guilt because of course, my dad has his own reasons for ending up the way he is, and I felt like it was wrong of me to be angry that he wasnt up to the job. It has only been since meeting my partner and him going 'you are right, that sucks' and validating my feelings (that I have learnt ARE okay) that the anger and sadness has started to reduce.
You dont need to rant with your son, you dont need to agree with everything, but the power in giving him a hug and saying 'you are right, its fucking shit and im sorry you have to deal with that' is underestimated - its all i needed. And my anger and sadness is turning into acceptance with mild annoyance. And I feel like I have much clearer head in terms of decision making around what the relationship looks like. What i can say no to, what feelings I can just let happen (him being annoyed at me for not doing things a certain way etc).
The second thing relies on the first thing in a way - your son needs to know this isnt forever- this is a phase while he figures things out, and sometimes he'll feel angry and sometimes he'll feel guilty and sometimes he'll not be able to let it go but all of that is okay, because one day its all going to look different. He needs to know that, because its really hard to understand that at 19 and I wish someone had explained that to me a bit more explicitly.

Your ex hasn't been a good parent and DS sees it. At 19, they still see the world very black and white, seeing the grey comes later.

I think you need to see this as him grieving the parent he wishes he had. Before his dad upset him, now he's gone up uni and seen the functional, committed parents others have and it's pissed him off!

Give him space. Don't make excuses for the shitty things dad has done or act like he should be forgiven for it. He will have to decide in time as the grey in life starts to get understood whether he wants a relationship with his dad on terms acceptable to him. His dad has only ever taught him he isn't worthy of being a priority, keep building him up to show him he's worth more than his poor excuse for a dad has made him feel.