DS frighteningly angry towards his dad (ex) - how can I support?

[lurchersforever]

I'm increasingly concerned about ds's (19) relationship with his dad and I'm not sure what to do about it. I know their relationship is between the two of them and is not my concern, but I'm worried about the impact on ds, which very much is my concern.

They are very different people. Ex is wannabe musician/writer or, according to ds now, a 'bum'. He is late 50s and has never had a career and lives off benefits (has a medical condition and associated disability, but this has only developed the last decade, so isn't the reason he has no career), and freelance work/online teaching he can do from home. He pays nothing for the dc, which isn't their concern, but they are aware he never buys them anything for his place/school and they know I am the one who provides everything.

DS is a high-achiever and extremely driven and has expressed that he just cannot understand his dad or have any respect for him at all. That is the polite version. The way he has spoken about his dad this summer has just been horrible to hear, and I am no fan of ex. Stuff like he is a total waste of space, what's the point of him, he (ds) hopes ex knows that ds despises him and he would like to tell him that. Just really cruel stuff that cannot be healthy for ds to have inside of him and isn't how he is with others in general - he's kind, responsible and helpful.

While ex has always been very much in the dc's lives since we split 12 years ago, and we have done a roughly 80/20 split, there have been lots of occasions of him letting them down and doing gigs on his weekends so he didn't have them, going on holiday without them in term time, needing to see his family in another city etc etc. This has lessened as he and they have got older - ex doesn't do gigs anymore and the dc are easier to have now they are older - not that they were ever difficult kids really.

Ex has also let ds down with stuff like a sport he got ds into then wouldn't commit to helping him train/taking him to matches and left it to me, which was difficult as I know nothing about it and, as a teacher, taking him to games on week nights in term time was a nightmare and I often had to sit in the car marking and trying to occupy ds2, who hated this sport, leaving ds1 with no one rooting for him on the sidelines while everyone else seemed to have their dad there. For a while he cancelled weekend contact to train to be a coach in this sport, and then never actually did the coaching so ds never got any benefit from it. DS seems to have a lot of bitterness about this. DS1 has said that at the age of about 11 his dad decided he was no longer a child, while with ds2 he knew he had nothing in common with him so tried to compensate by doing things like getting Eras tickets costing £1k while ds1 never had anything like that spent on him, and ex would just take him to the cricket, which he would have gone to anyway without ds1 being there. Again, a lot of bitterness about that.

The latest thing is ex has a house which he bought outright from an inheritance a few years ago which obviously he hasn't got the money to maintain properly. He should have got a new-build or flat but he got a Victorian terrace and it now has a leaking roof. He had someone fix it but apparently they scammed him and ds1 was woken the other night by rain pouring in on him and it has made him livid. He was ranting to me about what an idiot his dad is, how pathetic to get scammed, etc etc. He was meant to be staying there last night but couldn't due to the roof but ex still wanted to give them tea and messaged ds1 when he was at mine asking what takeaway he wanted. This again set ds1 off - what a lazy loser having takeaways all the time, he does nothing so why can't he cook (ex is actually a good cook, when he cba) etc etc. The anger was something else. He went for the takeaway but was back at mine within 90 mins so must have just eaten it and left. Ex has noticed he is off with him and is asking ds2 about it, which is putting him in the middle.

It seems to be such a mess and I don't know what to do. I read all these threads about dc cutting off from one parent at this age but ds1 doesn't seem to want that but has this awful animosity towards his dad. I think he should maybe stop staying overnight and just go there (when not at uni) for tea a couple of times per week, or meet him at cricket even when it's on, but he seems reluctant to make these changes and I know ex would resist, but they aren't kids anymore.

I also want ds to have counselling when he's back at uni - he is very hard on himself and says he's afraid of ending up like his dad even though he's nothing like him and I think this needs unpicking, but he says he hasn't got time and it's stupid.

Sorry this is so long and waffly - any advice would be great.

Just let him talk, it obviously helps him.

"It took me many years of sadness and anger before I could talk about how I felt, and my mum tried to smooth things over, because she like you didnt want to see me distressed. My experience is that while this might have helped momentarily, and she had the best intentions, my anger had nowhere to go"

I really agree with this. The anger should be expressed, albeit in a safe way. It's not the anger itself that is destructive - anger is there to protect you - it's when it is bottled up that it can explode in a destructive way. I could not talk about how angry I was with my father to anyone. My sister was completely focused on our father, and he used her as a confidante, so she was very protective over him (he destroyed her in the end, like @Majorspongebob 's brother was destroyed). My mother - before the divorce (he left her 6 months after she had a heart attack that nearly killed her at 43), she was trying to keep up a pretence of happy families. After the divorce, I didn't dare to talk to her about how I felt about Dad, because it was clear she was completely traumatised by how brutally my father had discarded her and erased her. And other family and friends had admiration for and allegiances towards my father - he was a charming narcissist - so I didn't feel comfortable or safe to reveal how angry I was with him.

So all I had was my mirror. It was better than nothing.

So I agree with PP that you should give your son a way to express his anger. It would be better if it was with a therapist (and frankly I'd push that hard) but if he won't accept therapy, it's important for you to listen with a sympathetic ear.

I do think it's important to tell him he should temper himself around his younger brother, though. His brother will have to walk his own path with regard to his father (like my sister did). He might also have or develop a different relationship with his father than DS1 has. DS1 might want DS2 to feel the same as him, and might get angry that DS2 is not as angry, or even defends their father. But DS1 should respect that his brother has to and will make his own choices. It's important to preserve their relationship as brothers as much as you can by heading off potential conflict surrounding their father.

Man held accountable for shitty parenting and you have problem with it?

It's difficult isn't it. I agree that anger needs to be expressed but endless ranting doesn't get people anywhere. Fwiw he sounds a bit like my ex - bit of a shambolic twat but not a complete bastard ie not a BAD PERSON as such, just kind of useless. There is a difference.

My kids have also gone through phases of being really mad at him when younger but now that they're young adults they've all chosen to have a relationship with him, albeit with low expectations on their part. I listen when they express frustration at his latest piece of pointless lunacy. I never contradict them when they want to explore that. But when they're calm I do point out that he loves them, even if he doesn't express that love in practical helpful ways and doesn't live his life the way they would like him to. I do think it's important for them to hear that.

I agree that therapy sounds helpful and hope he can come round to it. It’s clear he’s overcompensating due to his dad’s behaviour and that will set him up for a lifetime of struggle if he’s not careful.

I've been that son with my own Dad. At best id describe us as civil but i have no respect for a man who has had countless opportunities and wasted them.

What drives me is what drives your son - to be the best. To show my Dad that I'm nothing like him and to show the kids at work what a proper man is all about.

I'd encourage you to listen, but there's nothing else you can do.

Have you thought about talking to him about counselling not as 'counselling' as such, but rather as just another person he can vent to about his feelings towards his horrible dad? He must realise that he has you to talk to about it and to let off steam, but it would be useful for him to have someone else that he can safely speak to as well. Someone totally non-judgmental, who will just listen.

He clearly doesn't believe he needs 'counselling' counselling, and to be honest, neither do I. His father is so awful he has every right to feel the way he does. So maybe suggesting that he just finds someone else to talk to, who can understand his point of view, might just work. He has every right to be angry and frustrated, and he does need another outlet for his impotent rage, and hopefully he will see that it isn't entirely fair on you, his mother, for him to use you all the time.

Oh god - it has kicked off massively. He started looking into internships etc for next year and routes into law, which he isn't sure he wants, and got massively angry about how disadvantaged he is and how it is all his dad's fault - tbf, I came in for some criticism too. Apparently everyone he knows at uni has relatives in relevant fields and other 'connections' who are fixing up places for them and he (ds) is doomed to failure because we don't have that. He sent his dad a very angry/nasty text and then ranted to him on the phone about how useless he is.

He then calmed down a bit but then his dad messaged and said ds's dgf, now dead, who went to Oxford on a scholarship in the 1930s and came from an illiterate family, would be ashamed of ds's attitude to hiss roots. This made ds livid as apparently dgf's mother, despite her impoverishment, did all she could to support her son and ds feels that it's an insult to her for ex to essentially compare himself to her. He thinks his dad totally missed the point.

He has now gone to ex's house to discuss it with him and will then be out with friends until 'late'. I am so anxious about his state of mind but stuck here waiting...

I went to Cambridge and yeah many many other students had connections and got internships and work experience that way. It was pretty infuriating.

his dad has totally missed the point.

I’d leave them to it to be honest, he sounds like a useless and unreliable dad and frankly having a few home truths point out to him might not do him any harm.

and it’ll make your DS feel better 😘

I think all you can do is to support him while he works through this, your ex is not going to change and your ds is looking around him and seeing what he could have had/ what others do have in terms of support. Thats a lot to deal with especially in today’s environment where students could really do with all the help they can get. You could point him in the direction of the 93% club (aimed at helping state school kids without the networking parents that many private school. kids have) and also possibly point out that at least he’s around, he loves him and want the best for him and is not disinterested or a criminal - that’s a pretty low bar though. I think mention counselling from time to time - eventually he may come round to it, particularly as uni is probably a good place to access it

Actually I think that having a parent who loves you and wants the best for you is a good start. There are many many parents who are rich, well-connected, whose roofs don't leak and have good careers, can get internships sorted etc but who are nevertheless horrible human beings. This guy doesn't sound nasty or abusive, just a bit rubbish. And tbh, it's not due to a personal failing on his part that the legal profession is tied up in nepotism and establishment networks.

I had this same rant from my daughter who is at Oxbridge.
Her dad and I aren't together and neither of us have contacts that can help with internships but we have both always been involved in her education and helped all we can.
She has had to realise that not everyone has these advantages and is finding ways herself. I think if your son is at a top University and/or follows certain people on SM this competitive internship stuff gets blown way out of proportion & can cause a lot of anxiety.
I mentioned this to friends who have kids at other institutions doing art courses and they had no idea what I was talking about!

The 93 percent club is a great start, my elder daughter made good use of that. And his own Uni career service can help.
Then searching online and finding any opportunity he can & getting all the experience he can.

At the end of the day, yes, he has a less than useful Dad but it sounds like he is loved by both of his parents which is something some children don't have.

What about children whose fathers have passed away? Children who have never known their father?
The internship/job situation is not his dad's fault.

You reap what you sow. I would just support your son and not get involved with him
and his dad.

No wonder DS1 got angry the second time. Ex was basically claiming that by criticising him for being a crap dad, DS1 was looking down on his roots. The argument states that dad=all roots, ergo if DS1 criticises him, he's criticising the entire antiquity of ex's family. Ergo DS1 is being mean to the entire antiquity of ex's family, including DGM.

It's a sleight-of-hand and deflection that changes the subject and avoids the real issue: that DS1 is disappointed in ex as a father.

I'd let DS1 have it out with ex. Ex needs to hear it because he's a parent too, and he has really dropped the ball in so many ways. Maybe he can pick up his game, maybe not, but DS1 is an adult now and has to find his balance with his dad.

What did DS1 say to you? I'd push back on him being rude, if he was (once he's calmed down).

Yes, it's Oxford he's at, and at a college dominated by people from very privileged backgrounds. Much as he loves it, I think it gets a bit much sometimes hearing what they're all up to etc.

He spent some time at ex's yesterday but I haven't see much of him since as he's out at cricket all day today but he definitely was calmer this morning. I think the conversation with ex focused more on inequality in general rather than ex's personal failings though and it does seem that he has conflated the two issues this week.

Agree with this.
Your son has a right to be angry, and actually I think it’s good that he can see what a hopeless and feckless father his Dad has been. If your son decides to have a child in the future he will be a far better parent because he can see where your ex went wrong.

I have a dc at Oxford who sometimes found it hard being surrounded by friends with huge amounts of money, and often helpful connections. It is difficult to go from a comp to Oxford, so I can understand that side of your ds being upset too.

I have had my elder go through an Oxbridge University and my younger one is now doing it too.

It's a very different experience and can definitely mess with their heads because it's way more intense than other places and the students there are more intense.
It's like they get sucked into an alternative universe which is hard for others to understand!

I would imagine that a lot of your son's current anger comes from the pressure & anxiety that being at Oxford entails.

Both of mine have experienced feelings of "imposter syndrome" because they went to a bog standard comprehensive and don't come from a wealthy background.
But they found ways to handle it and to feel proud that they got there anyway and are just as good as anyone else.

I mentioned it before, as did another poster, but if you haven't got him linked up with the 93 percent club definitely do that. They offer free advice and mentoring for state school kids trying to break into top flight careers - advice from people who have done just that.

I have sympathy for your son's position it can be hard. If nothing else encourage him to look at virtual law internships - lots of top firms do them, you can try out different areas of law for free and they will give you a certificate when you complete it. It will also show an interest in the firm if he applies to them as well as being personally pro-active and not just relying on parental contacts. He can then spin it as self-motivated, taking active steps, overcoming disadvantages etc

Thanks everyone - it's definitely a high-pressured environment at Oxford and I did say last night I wished he hadn't gone there, but he looked at me as if I was a total idiot. I do think it's a love/hate relationship he has with it though. He has mentioned the 93% club and there was some reason he gave for not getting involved with it much last year, but I'll mention it to him again for sure. The virtual internships also sound good so I'll make sure he's aware of those too.

My eldest really struggled with the high pressure environment and even feels it if she goes back to visit friends who are still there doing longer courses - it's almost like PTSD for her 😂!

My youngest acknowledges the pressure and definitely feels it at times but also thrives on it too.
I had no idea what it was like until they went though. It's unlike anywhere else really or seems to be.
But apparently good experience for high pressure jobs later on though 🤷‍♀️