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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Original poster

SO tired of women/girls being held accountable for mens failings...

59 replies

differentnameforthis · 27/03/2016 00:20

This is not a TAAT, but it is because of a recent thread, and some concerning behaviour that I have been seeing recently.

Am I the only one who is so tired of having to explain that a man doesn't have a right to touch a woman against her wishes. That even if she refuses sex, or can't have sex, for whatever reason, he doesn't have a right to take it, just because he 'might be frustrated" or "you are married"

I just seem to keep repeating it again & again....which saddens me on a site that is predominantly frequented by women.

A man/husband/boyfriend/partner doesn't have the right to touch any woman in a sexual way when she has been clear that sex is currently off the table. Or has said NO

He doesn't have a right to film her sleeping, while he touches her/himself

And that if he does do any of this to her, and she sees it as assault, then it IS assault. And she is allowed to feel violated.

That just because you (general you) like to be touched in a certain way, or woken up with sexual touching, or whatever, it doesn't mean that everyone has to accept it.

She doesn't have to "talk to him" about his feelings, if she has already done so & if he is aware of what is going on.

Or the most recent one that I have been seeing a lot of (not just on here) "there are 2 sides to every story"

Can we just support the woman who is asking for advice based on her feelings/words that she has posted? Can we not call her a troll (the troll hunting on a recent thread was awful), can we not insinuate that she is lying by saying that there are 2 side to the story, can we not tell her that she is being dramatic, or ridiculous?

Please?

OP posts:
NameChange30 · 27/03/2016 00:23

I agree with you, but this is a TAAT, and you're preaching to the converted. It's some (not all) of the AIBU crowd you need to be addressing. Not the Relationships crowd.

catsofa · 27/03/2016 00:24

YANBU, well put.

AyeAmarok · 27/03/2016 00:25

I completely agree. There are so many threads like this about at the minute.

And it's about a 50/50 split between men/women who are the assault apologists.

It's very depressing.

AyeAmarok · 27/03/2016 00:26

Emma it's some of the Relationships crowd too, unfortunately.

At least, there are quite a few rape apologists who seem to be hanging out on this board at the minute.

Original poster
differentnameforthis · 27/03/2016 00:31

It isn't solely about a particular thread, but it came about because it was the last straw, seeing a woman who feels assaulted being told she was being dramatic & ridiculous.

I didn't put it into AIBU because I don't think I am, so I don't need that to be answered. Plenty of posters who need to, will hopefully see it.

There are threads in relationships that have people minimising & giving crap advice, so no, I am not preaching to the converted.

OP posts:
NameChange30 · 27/03/2016 00:36

Yes I suppose you're right. There are people who post that kind of thing in Relationships, too. I just think AIBU is a lot worse.

NameChange30 · 27/03/2016 00:37

There was a poster on that particular thread who was particularly awful and said that she(?) has hidden the Relationships board. That person won't see this but she is probably a lost cause anyway!

Original poster
differentnameforthis · 27/03/2016 02:07

If it's the same one I am thinking of, it is probably a good thing...as they are the troll themselves! So anything that stops one posting has to be good!

OP posts:
HelenaDove · 27/03/2016 02:20

Ive seen these attitudes on a couple of threads recently Its appalling.

And something else that ive seen happen is when its the woman posting as the higher drive partner she gets asked whether her appearance has changed e.g. has she put on weight.

Certain types will always look to lay the blame on the woman .....whatever.

Backtoblackcoffee · 27/03/2016 09:54

Sadly some of it is a generational thing. Some (not all) older women tend to side with the man i.e men not being able to control themselves and so on as its what they were taught when they were younger.

slimochuda · 27/03/2016 14:27

Some men perhaps also absorb the message they cannot be expected to control themselves sexually whereas women don't get this message and are only allowed to be passive in relation to sex. I know 30-40 sthg men who never have sex and they are not ill or unable to function as a result

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe2726 · 27/03/2016 14:40

Very preachy and just a bit patronising, OP. I also get fed up of reading that women "are sick and TIRED" of this and that. It just sounds feeble and pointless. Be angry, annoyed, frustrated yes, but 'sick and tired' is just a nothing.

AyeAmarok · 27/03/2016 15:28

It's only patronising to those with a bit of intelligence and understanding though Lying.

There are so many people who actually don't know these very basic rules.

It's obvious to me, in the same way it's obvious to me that a married couple should have equal access to family money, or that a NRP should pay child support even if he goes on to have a second family, or that a man who has 'psycho exes' is probably not the nice guy he tells everyone he is.

But it amazes me every day on here how many people these things aren't obvious to.

If the message gets through to even one or two more people then great.

BadDoGooder · 27/03/2016 15:41

The attitude is detrimental to both sexes imo.
It tells men it's ok to take what you want because you are married. It sends the message that a ring on her finger makes her your property, it can't be healthy for men to be fed that idea. It also perpetautes the idea that women aren't really up for sex, and do it just to please men.

I was disturbed by the responses on that latest thread. Me and DP have ongoing consent, but other women have the absolute right to decide it isn't for them. I am disgusted at the amount of posters who think that men have a right to your body at all times, just because you share a bed!

Original poster
differentnameforthis · 27/03/2016 16:22

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe I'm beyond angry! And thanks for telling me that my feelings over this amount to "nothing" "feeble" and "pointless"!

Which is oddly what the women on the threads were being told when they object to their spouses behaviour.

I would expect more from you, actually.

It came after reading more threads early this morning about women who were being told that it is (paraphrasing) practically their husbands god given right to touch them when they have withdrawn consent, or that not having sex with your husband for 3 weeks is akin to celibacy and that it is the fault of the wife if he has an affair. Telling women that "he is only touching you" and "he is telling you that he still finds you attractive" and "perhaps you should let him wank over you while he touches your breast"

I AM tired of it....fucking weary & tired of having to fight & explain the same thing OVER and OVER again.

After anger comes the bone deep tiredness of knowing that nothing is fucking changing...so no, being sick & tired is NOT nothing.

OP posts:
LyingWitchInTheWardrobe2726 · 27/03/2016 16:50

Just what women need, different, to be told by other WOMEN that their feelings are reduced to causing women like you to feel TIRED and sickened. You're presumably not suffering from the self-esteem issues, the paralysing fear, the inability to change their positions because they can see no way out...

These are not YOUR feelings, obviously, as you're just 'sick and tired' of other women feeling those genuine feelings - you are not. All you're actually doing by posting the way you did in your OP is to make those women who need reassurance and validation of their feelings, perceive that there is nothing here for them, just women who are 'sick and tired' of hearing it.

I would never post the way you did. If I felt as jaded as you claim to, I'd move on to another thread and let the patient (and thank goodness for them!), explain that there are other options for them, no matter how helpless and hamstrung into inaction they may feel at the time.

Shame on you, different, I don't know who you are or why you felt the need to change username to post. I'd have more respect for someone who posted in their usual guise but to post on relationships that you're 'sick and tired' of explaining... well don't feel obliged to, really.

AyeAmarok · 27/03/2016 17:20

Wow wow wow, let's not turn on each other. We're all wanting the same outcome here.

different is a regular poster, she hasn't nc'd, for what it's worth.

AyeAmarok · 27/03/2016 17:28

I understood the 'tiredness' to be from having to explain to men and women who are rape apologists that women are allowed bodily autonomy, and don't just have to put up with a man deciding to have sex on them because the man wants it and has a right, even when the woman is to tired/sore/ill/upset/depressed/whatever to want to have sex.

It's not having to explain it to an OP who posts for help, it's having to explain it to the men and women who pile in to say that the OP should shut up and put out lest The Man feel unloved and go and have an affair and it'll be ALL YOUR FAULT OP! (true story, seriously Sad)

Nobody would be too tired to give support to a woman who came here needing help.

iminshock · 27/03/2016 17:43

"The relationships crowd "
I can't believe I just read that Confused

DarrenHardysDrongo · 27/03/2016 17:47

That's how I understood it too Aye.

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe2726 · 27/03/2016 17:48

Fair enough, AyeAmarok

different; I read your OP another way and it hit a sore spot, Aye*'s post explains better. I'm sorry.

SoThatHappened · 27/03/2016 19:19

Ive been there. In bed with a guy and look up to see he has his iPhone is his hand. Didnt warn me or ask my consent.

You know I think that we feel embarrassed by their appalling behaviour and almost feel a need to explain it.

FuckYouChrisAndThatHorse · 27/03/2016 19:35

I don't know how many times I've posted, "sex is a mutually enjoyable thing" of late. There's been a few times I've done a double take, having assumed that the thread must have been in AIBU. But no. In Relationships and still a herd of "men are different and need sex" :(

It's schools holidays. That's one thing I keep reminding myself. It's very sad that school kids think that trolling women in vulnerable situations is entertainment, but I can hope that they'll grow up.

Every time I see someone post that it's not normal, that it's not ok, that no one should do anything they don't want to, it lifts me. Knowing that there are women who keep helping.

It wasn't so long ago that my "normal" was a far cry from where it is now. It wasn't so long ago that I was the woman being told that I had a right to not do things I didn't want to. I know how it can creep up on you, how small things build up, how awful it can be.

But that's not normal, and I won't accept that men are anything other than rational human beings. They're not animals. Good men don't do bad things.

So that long ramble was my way of saying thank you. Posting does make a difference to people's lives. Maybe even to the apologists themselves. I suspect some may have their eyes opened to what they previously considered to be their duty.

HelenaDove · 27/03/2016 19:42

I dont think its just down to the holidays. There has been a change in tone of late going on for a bit longer than that. I think some of it is MRAs

FuckYouChrisAndThatHorse · 27/03/2016 19:44

Helena, I agree. I keep hoping it's just the holidays, but it's been increasing for a while.

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