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Primary education

Join our Primary Education forum to discuss starting school and helping your child get the most out of it.

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Original poster

entrance exams grammer schools

35 replies

whathappened · 21/01/2010 21:43

Hi, sorry if this is in wrong place.I am a lurker and this is my first post.just after some advise really,does anyone know what sats grades your child should be getting to have a realistic chance of getting into grammer.dd is in year 5 and is probably the only one not being tutored although is getting grade 4, which is sort of middle for her class.My dd comes home from school often telling me other kids tell her she must be tutored to have a chance.I am new to all this and not sure where to turn for advise,
thank you

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mimsum · 21/01/2010 22:01

it depends on how selective the grammars are in your area - in some authorities it's the top 25% getting in - in others the schools are 'super-selective' and the percentage is a lot lower

Does your dd struggle in any particular area?

If she's bang in the middle of the class (depending on the make-up of the rest of the class of course) she might end up struggling if she did manage to pass the exam

What are the non-selective schools like?

thegrammerpolicesic · 21/01/2010 22:19

You beat me to it mimsmum. I wouldn't have been able to resist a mean-spirited little correction given my posting name.

Hullygully · 21/01/2010 22:32

As said it depends where yo live. But state schools do NOT cover the entrance tests in verbal/nonverbal reasoning, and quite often not in maths either. So, you need to find out what the tests are for the grammars in your area and either coach her yourself (there are a couple of very good websites), or get a tutor.

Websites include 11 plus UK - which is excellent and was set up specifically to help kids from non fee paying schools have a chance at grammars by provideing free practice papers, "how to" videos and a chat forum. It's well worth a look.

sugartits · 21/01/2010 22:38

My dd passed her exam for a super selective grammar school having had no 'official' tutoring. We did however go through lots of past papers for about 6 weeks before hand - you need to find out exactly which exams the schools you are considering set. Then you can get books and lots of free papers on the site Hullygully mentioned. My dd got 5c &b's at the end of year 5.

claig · 21/01/2010 22:43

I don't think she needs to be tutored. However, she will need to work hard, studying sample papers, and learn and revise any topics she doesn't understand. She won't
be able to answer all of the questions in the sample papers, so she will need your help and she can also get help from forums at 11plus.co.uk and elevenplusexams.co.uk. At these forums you and your DD can ask questions and other pupils and parents help out with explanations.

She will need to work hard because of the competition from many other children who are working very hard towards these exams. Even children who are top of the class can fail.

I think the key determinant is hard work. If there are questions she cannot understand then you could use top-up tutoring near the end to cover these topics.

It is tough, but don't be put off, it is doable.

seeker · 21/01/2010 22:57

Are you talking super-selective or "ordinary" grammar? If you don't know, then if you tell us what area you live in we can probably tell you!

Original poster

whathappened · 21/01/2010 23:46

thank you for all the replies.Nonsuch is our school and apologies for my spelling,i am an older mum and posting this is a big enough trouble without being able to work out spell check! didnt have these computer things in my day

OP posts:

claig · 21/01/2010 23:51

let she who has never made a spelling mistake cast the first stone. Nonsuch is not in my area, but from reading the 11plus forums it has got a very good reputation and is a tough one

GrimmaTheNome · 22/01/2010 00:30

My DD passed 11+ this year (don't yet know if she has a place as out of catchment) - we were told beforehand, at an open evening, that typically they would expect the girls to be achieving level 5s at the end of Yr5 (which DD did)

Check when the grammar school has its open day/evening(s) - if they aren't till the summer then you probably should check with them sooner what the format of the exams is - they should be able to tell you if they use NFER or some other standard tests, and whether they do VR/NVR/Comprehension or essay (AFAIK they all do maths) and whether they used multiple choice or not. They may even provide some sample papers. And I'd hope they can answer your question about whether your DD is a likely candidate.

claig · 22/01/2010 00:49

Just looked at Nonsuch's website. There are only 2 exams one for verbal reasoning and one for non-verbal reasoning, both multiple choice NFER exams. You can buy sample papers in Smiths. You don't need to do maths or English exams, so it is relatively easy to prepare for. Also, with these two exams, I think you won't really need a tutor.

hbfac · 22/01/2010 00:56

Hello there.

Nonsuch is a mixture of highly competitive and fairly competitive. A number of places are reserved for in-catchment girls, and historically the pass-mark for those places has been lower that the pass-mark for the out-of-catchment places.

Have you thought about Wallington too? People tend to try for both.

Definitely have a look at the elevenplusexams website - they have a Sutton grammars section ( I think it's "Surrey"). There will be advice about which papers are set by Nonsuch (and Wallington).

Warning: I think there is a maths paper. The problem with maths is that a lot of state primaries do not cover all the necessary maths, and in sufficient depth, to deal with 11+ maths papers. In theory, yes, in practice no. you may be lucky, your dd's school may be great but ... .

I found books covering maths for 11+ helpful - and any areas I though my ds hadn't covered, I tried to deal with.

As others have said, check if there is a VR or NVR (or both) paper. Do get hold of some practice papers. It's too much to expect a child to do well in such an unfamiliar style of exam without any familiarity.

Good luck.

hbfac · 22/01/2010 01:10

Missed Claig's post.

That will make things more straightforward.

Quattrocento · 22/01/2010 01:17

DD did an entrance exam at a grammar school with only 2 exams one for verbal reasoning and one for non-verbal reasoning, both multiple choice NFER exams.

In this situation NO tutoring is necessary. As mentioned previously, tutoring is only necessary where children are being examined on material they won't have covered in their primary schools.

But you must practise the exam papers and go through exam technique with her. Find out which types of question she understands and the ones she has problems with and help her work out how to answer them. All the questions are generic - ie they follow certain patterns. DD did a total of 9 practice papers.

In response to the question about SATS levels, it really does depend on how hard it is to get into the school, and I don't have any information on the school you are trying for. It is usually easier to get a place if you live in catchment.

Good luck

almay292 · 22/01/2010 01:47

I agree with many of the recommendations made by other posters. Helping the child prepare for the examination through revision, past papers etc is hugely important. Going into the exam room feeling adequately prepared is also a good way of keeping the nerves at bay ? for the parent as well as the child. (Has nobody had the exam dream? In mine, I?ve been away from school for months and now I?m sitting there waiting for the papers to be handed out?)
But I don?t agree that that the 11 plus is particularly 'tough'. Let me clarify: sitting the 11 plus will not be the emotional /psychological undoing of any reasonably bright child, especially if they?re lucky enough to have parents willing to provide informed support and constant reassurance.

Having made the informed) decision to enter a child for this exam, there's no point in parents heaping unnecessary stress on the kid. Better to focus any frantic nervous energy on building the child?s confidence (after all, if you didn?t think they were capable of passing the exam you wouldn?t put them through the ordeal would you?)by identifying and providing the support they need get them through the process unscathed - and into the school of their choice. Now, entrance exams are another matter....

Original poster

whathappened · 22/01/2010 07:34

thank you all so much,your replies have really helped.I shall start her on some papers and see how she goes.dd struggled very badly first few years but has now picked up.i have been spending about 15mins each night covering the maths she has been doing at school.my main thought is really getting her into higher stream if she goes to comprehensive but she is getting pressure from schoolmates that it is grammar or you are a failure,i have to say i am noticing such a change in some of the mums as there seems to be panic in the air.I know i am bias but my dd has a lovely personality.very bubbly and i just want her to stay happy.some of the girls seem to be turning into robots and talk about tutoring all the time and who has the most lessons a week!thanks again ladies

OP posts:

smee · 22/01/2010 10:38

Why not talk to her current school and see what they think? Sounds competitive, so there's no point in putting pressure on her if they think it's unlikely she'll pass. If they think she could pass, they might have some answers in terms of what to work on at home. And if she's borderline or won't get in then get excited for her/ with her about the comprehensive so she doesn't feel a failure before she's even got there. Girls can be so cruel and competitive.

UnquietDad · 22/01/2010 10:41

Grammar Grammar Grammar Grammar GRAMMAR

It is fucking GRAMMAR

thegrammerpolicesic · 22/01/2010 10:46

Snigger. Now calm down UQD.

GrimmaTheNome · 22/01/2010 10:50

She knows, UQD, she knows. Sod off to pedants' corner will you?

Swedey · 22/01/2010 10:56

UQD how mean spirited and rude. Yuk.

UnquietDad · 22/01/2010 11:03

Oh, look, I have corrected this politely often enough, along with "independant" (sic). Sick to death of it now.

Swedey · 22/01/2010 11:07

UQD the OP is making her maiden post. I know you are the forum bore but sadly not everyone else knows that. Why don't you spend more time advising people on what parenting book they might like to buy?

ampere · 22/01/2010 11:07

Now, to be absolutely fair, re the grammar of grammar , one must remember that the irritation builds up after years of reading:

"I know that my DC is so clever they must go to an independant or grammer school".

It riles me too though I wouldn't dare put it here because the MN retort always contains the word 'Fuck'.

UnquietDad · 22/01/2010 11:10

I'm not one for jumping down people's throats and I suppose I didn't realise it was a first post. But Ampere encapsulates my point.

As for my role on here - Swedes, I wouldn't dare usurp you.

smee · 22/01/2010 11:15

UQD that almost sounded like an apology...

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