How do you compare schools?

[squtable]

Hello,

I've been looking at the gov data for comparing schools & just wanted to know what was more important. The progress score or how many are achieving the expected & exceeding standard. Some schools have higher standard scores but lower progress scores.

For me, neither of those things.

More important is the school's ethos, the feel I got for the place when I visited, staff turnover, parent feedback.

Yes those things are obviously important but I meant more how do you interpret that specific data?

if you’re interested in how much progress your kid makes, not the kind of child that goes to the school, the progress score. The only challenge is it’s slightly less reliable for primary than secondary because the early benchmark is based on teacher assessments not standardised tests.

@prista thank you. So a high progress score is a good thing but I assume it depends on what the baseline was the previous yr. i didn't realise it was based on teacher assessments.

I would interpret the data as measuring how many kids are achieving/exceeding the metrics that 1)they have deemed important 2)are able to be captured in an exam. Progress means students do better than expected based on multiple data points.

a better question is whether you think the government captures the right data and does so accurately.

my personal perspective is that it is very difficult to capture what matters in an exam, so most of that data is only useful in a partial / directional sense. It doesn’t accurately speak to the quality of teaching overall, and it definitely doesn’t predict how your child will thrive (or not).

by all means look at the data - it probably correlates more to demographics than educational quality- but I understand the appeal of something tangible. In reality @Pinkflipflop85 makes a valid point that neither data point is particularly predictive and qualitative measures are probably more useful (though also limited)

Visit the school and look at the children. That is what your child will turn into.

I think both those statistics are a nonsense personally. Schools want great progress scores so try to score children low when they arrive. So a great progress score mag mean fabulous teachers OR it may mean the scjool is a bit dodgy at assessing kids as they arrive.

Choose the school your child will best fit into socially. We went for our nearest school but had to move cos DC had nothing in common with the children there and after a few years that was causing problems.

If a school has a high progress score but lower SATs results this will mean that the intake probably started from a lower than average point. This isn't always a bad thing but can mean a lot if pupil premium/English as an additional language/didn't attend nursery children which has both good and bad points.

a better question is whether you think the government captures the right data and does so accurately.

that's a good point & I don't think it probably does!

We are looking at a few next week

Published scores are useful but only for context and alongside other things.

Like visiting the school, do you like the atmosphere and ethos.

Are you likely to get a place based on location?

Look at the published scores next to Borough and national averages - significantly below, I'd be concerned about what's driving that. Significantly above and you should look to understand the same - it may be more to do with the cohort ie a lot of parents highly motivated for their kids to do well.

single form entry school might shift quite a bit Year to Year, bigger schools will tend more to the average just because the cohort is bigger.

If looking at reception remember that while small seems attractive for early years, bigger schools have more resources which is key in later years.

I didn’t look at any of that data tbh. Visited the 3 nearest primary schools, went for the faith school which had a good vibe, was a nice size, I really liked the head and was a feeder for the better secondary school in the area. There’s a lot less variation between primary schools than secondaries in my experience.

Choose the school your child will best fit into socially.

How do you work this out from one visit though? We are new to the area.

If looking at reception remember that while small seems attractive for early years, bigger schools have more resources which is key in later years.

that's something I haven't considered

@Silvergone

That is not the case with progress - our GCSE targets are set externally to an extent, and based on the SATs data from year 6. We have no control over them. Obviously the covid years it is teacher assessed by the primary school but typically not.

I'm looking at primary schools at the moment.

Look at data over time - is it a solid high performer, do results fluctuate or is it on a journey of improvement? I would also look at the underlying data, is there a significant difference between the attainment of boys and girls, those from disadvantaged backgrounds and those with English as an additional language? Also, worth considering progress and attainment in the light of the pupil cohort.

Worth considering leaver destinations and any current feeder relationships with secondary schools.

Read the Ofsted reports and consider how up to date they are - was the current head leading the school at the last inspection? Has the school always been outstanding or good?

All this is useful background but nothing beats going to see the school in action, talking to the head, teaching and other staff, looking at the children’s work and standing outside at drop off and pick up time. Does the ethos fit with what you are looking for? Will your child be happy, have a good educational experience and achieve their full potential?

All of it is important and measures different things.

Look at the school and I’d also suggest being there when parents pick up the kids. You get a sense of things, who the parents are.

Don’t judge on stereotypes. I eventually sent my child to a school with an average rating, not very sought after, because they took in local refugee kids who had to learn english as a second language. But a quick look at the school told me that the teachers were excellent, low turnover of staff, kids who struggled were managed well, ethos and care for kids was great.

I chose that over the one up the road with a better rating and really good facilities, as I didn’t think that the teacher’s were as experienced, and the overall leadership was all about superficiality.

Sorry doh totally misread that as secondary 🤦‍♀️

Thanks for all this info & advice, really helpful.

I'm going to discreetly walk past at school pick up time!

@squtable do reflect on it.

My DCs went to our local primary which was 2 form entry when when DD1 started and expanded up to 3 and 4 form entry and an additional site.

The head was already full time, the expansion meant we then had two site focused deputy heads, a full time SENCO and more TAs.

A big primary can seem daunting when your DC are in early years, but I'm a fan.

Think about what things are important to you:
Do you need/want breakfast or after school clubs?
What extra curricular activities do they offer?
Do they do swimming/forest school etc? How often? Are these important to you?
What is the teacher/TA to pupil ratio?
What facilities do they have?

I'm going to go against what a few PPs have said & say don't dismiss small schools - they can be brilliant (my DCs one is) despite the limitations, they make up for it in other ways.
Go in with an open mind & actually you probably will get a feeling about which one(s) are right for your child.

@squtable
You won’t know about staff turnover until you talk to other parents. It’s not published data. Free school meals is and all data, over the years, builds up a picture. Small schools of 1 form entry are ok but 1/2 form entry is too small, I think. Music, sport and drama are compromised. Plus variety in teaching skills. Visit all years groups. Not just YR.

From the stats, attainment was much more important to us.

Most of the higher attainment schools also had quite modest progress scores. We looked at this backwards and reasoned that this must mean the kids are also higher attainment in year 2 (I think progress scores were based upon the difference between year 2 and year 6 SATs). As our child was obviously quite bright at 3, we thought he’d thrive in a school that had a lot of higher achievers from day 1 and made steady but not unexpectedly good progress over the years.

Another option was a school with a progress score of 8 (so off the charts amazing). The attainment was still below average in year 6. We did visit the school but were incredibly put off by the poor academic results and felt my son might not fit in with the cohort - it sounds terrible and snobby but it was a very, very deprived area and you could tell. The school itself was amazing, just didn’t feel the right fit for us.

Definitely visit the schools, although do so with a critical mind and have questions ready to ask.

@RachelSq
In my LA, when it comes to secondary schools,some of the grammars have the highest progress scores too! They also get the best results for GCSEs and A levels as you might expect. You really can have excellent progress and good results. Lower progress might be a coasting school.