Does Corbyn think the party is more important than the electorate?

[tilder]

Just that really. He and his supporters keep banging on about the mandate he has from the party.

They seem to miss the key point that the electorate didn't give him (or labour) a mandate.

Am still waiting for a genuine, electable and sane opposition to the tories.

I am sure you will have somebody else nearer the election.

What do you think is 'insane' about JC?

His current "mandate" is to be an effective opposition, and his overall stance has been chosen by the party as the best way to do that.

Whether this can be turned into a mandate to govern will be tested at the next general election.

I didn't use the word insane. I said i would like to see some sane opposition. Perhaps not the best choice of words ever but still different thing.

I do hope there is a different leader by then. Otherwise we will have a choice of very left in Jc, very right (either Gideon or Boris) or a tiny lib dem.

Greens and ukip are even further away from what I consider sane politics.

For me the patronising, smug, naive politics of Corbyn and mcdonnell is a massive no.

I don't think jc is 'leaderly' - for instance, I think he should have been able to deliver a whipped vote on Syria. I say that as some one who actually likes the man himself. I do, however, think he offers bl**dy good opposition. Recently, labour has been sounding just like the tories for fear of being accused of being irresponsible.

Why can't we find a labour leader who is actually charismatic and a natural leader. Could the USA lend us Obama?

Obama is to the right of Cameron - so, a good choice!

Really?! Explain, Rose.

The electorate they are talking about is the Labour Party members. Who elected JC as leadsrl

Well the majority of the electorate didn't give the Tories a mandate so not sure you have a point

He and his supporters keep banging on about the mandate he has from the party.

They seem to miss the key point that the electorate didn't give him (or labour) a mandate

I think you are confusing two separate mandates. The Labour Party has no mandate to govern, they lost the election. I'm sure JC is well aware of this.

JC does have a mandate to lead the Labour Party. He won the party leadership contest by a considerable margin. He was voted in by the majority of Labour Party supporters.

Am still waiting for a genuine, electable and sane opposition to the tories.

Interesting point. Pre JC, I would have agreed with you. The LP under EM were mostly Tory-lite (eg Harman's support of tax credit cuts while she was caretaker leader). JC's vision of labour policy is markedly different to that of the Tories, and arguably provides the electorate with a choice between two true my opposing parties for the first time in many years. Agree that JC is too left wing for some and therefore the LP is at a viable option, but perhaps better than parties with identikit policies (so no real opposition to the government).

Patronising, smug, naive politics of Corbyn and McDonnell is a massive no

I know exactly how you feel. Cameron, Hunt and Osbourne elicit the same response from me.

It is very sad to see the shambles of Labour.

I like Corbyn but he is being undermined by this politically correct political class that gets access to the BBC constantly and all of the Establishment types in the Labour party. Unless Corbyn shows the courage to put an end to it and to sack the lot of them, then the public will not even bother paying any attention to Labour. The public expects decisiveness and conviction, not political correctness.

Ayesha, who seems to be invited onto the BBC very often and yet was never an MP, just said on Newsnight that Corbyn should replace McDonnell with Angela Eagle. They are taking the mickey out of Corbyn. He is supposed to be left wing so it is about time he apponted only left wingers and showed the Establishment ones and the politically correct ones the door.

If Corbyn had the courage to offer a real alternative to the electorate as opposed to the usual Establishment cronies, then just as Donald Trump has stunned the Establishment in the US, I think Corbyn would trounce them here too.

I think the fact that JC does not whip for massive votes should be favourable to more neutral voters. He is as democratic as you can get. Nothing worse than when the PM makes a decision on something that the electorate disagree with but no one listens. JC values everyone's opinion and thinks his MPs should represent their constituents. What is so bad about that?

LP is in a state of transition. I hope JC can see off the likes of danczuk and kendall and his successor holds the same values and wisdom but is younger. Corbyn's age is his biggest problem. The electorate will not vote in a 71 year old.

'JC values everyone's opinion and thinks his MPs should represent their constituents. What is so bad about that?'

He is weak. He has to take charge or move aside. The public expects a united opposition that opposes the Tories effectively. If he is not capable of it, then he is letting the whole country down. The Labour Party is not a debating society and its leader is not a joke to be undermined by politically correct appointees. He needs to sort the shower out and make it left wing so that the people can decide if they support a real opposition to the "all in it together" political class.

Why claig? You complain about establishment, champion the maverick and denigrate the 'done thing'. Corbyn has popular support within the LP, is struggling with the inherited PLP and is being different.
You wanted different.
JC can't change the PLP. The LP can change it next time but whatever he does he is stuck with the establishment media delighting in division and portraying discussion as indecision.
How can you fall back into this mindset?
UKIP are divided with 1 MP!

Giddy, I like Corbyn. I want different. I think if Corbyn was tough he could call the Establishment's bluff, he could sack half his front bench, put Diane Abbott in a top role, promote the excellent Clive Lewis and lots of other left wingers that most of us have never seen or heard of under Blairite rule.

Then there is nothing the media could do except slag Corbyn off. Even the Establishment BBC would have to start inviting some real left wingers on Newsnight instead of the usual Jess Phillips and Ayesha Hazarika and that lot. The media will never be friendly to Corbyn, just as they aren't friendly to Trump. Corbyn needs to go direct to the people and bypass the Establishment's media and BBC in the way that Trump has done in America with js rallies of tens of thousands while the Establishment rallies are far less.

'UKIP are divided with 1 MP'

UKIP are a joke because the Establishment have stuffed it full of their stooges who seek to divide it just like the Edtablishment stooges do against Corbyn. Farage is also weak and can't sack the lot which is why UKIP will fail even though they got half the votes that the established Labour party got. The Establishment will beat UKIP, but if Corbyn grew a backbone, they wouldn't be able to beat a left wing Labour party with policies diametrically opposed to the Establishment ones.

You have to remember that the people the Establishment have got who criticised Corbyn are people like Blair, Danczuk, Hillary Benn, Jess Philips etc. The BBC loves them but no one among the public takes them seriously.

If Corbyn showed some courage, the people would back him. People want an alternative, not the same old same old.

claig I know you were all Jez we can but I think you honestly have unrealistic expectations. It can't happen overnight and the media likes excitement so you either change things gradually or in one big bang. JC has never been a leader and a standard bearer. He's a quiet stalwart of what is decent. If you wanted a knight in shining armour to slay the establishment he was never going into battle. He's the road less taken, the high road, the road strewn with choices.
Trump is an intellectual pygmy. Also Shabab are using him in propaganda. He's anti establishment in the way of someone who challenges whether the night is black. I cannot believe that you can hold the man who was demonstrating with me about apartheid in any way analogous with the man who can't do his own hair, wants to wall in the Land of the Free and shut down the internet.

Oh I must go to bed but I will carry on tomorrow if you like :)

Sack the lot BTW? 1 MP!!! The party could force a bye election in one seat.

'It can't happen overnight and the media likes excitement so you either change things gradually or in one big bang. '

The problem with that is "death by a thousand cuts". The media and the Establishment want Corbyn out and they want the safe pair of hands of the Establishment stooges back in. I know that Corbyn is not a leader but behind him there must be a few real leftwingers who understand what is at stake and how they are going to lose unless they show courage. As Del boy so rightly said "he who dares wins".

What is happening is that the public are getting sick of Labour being weak. Eventually no one will take the seriously as being capable of running the country if they can't even run their own party. If they haven't got the courage to take on their own Establishment stooges, how on earth will they take on the media that is stacked against them and the billionaires and financiers who support the Tories?

The public is losing patience with Labour being a shower. In the end they will have to vote Tory because the Establishment will make a mockery of UKIP. I wouldn't be surprised if Danczuk joins UKIP.

'Trump is an intellectual pygmy.'

Trump is brilliant. He has outsmarted the entire US political class and billionaire Establishment donors. As Roger Stone, his former adviser, said "they are peeing their pants" and so of course are Shabab and all the rest of the funded Jihadis because Trump will finish them within weeks.

Danny Finkelstein was on BBC Newsnight tonight, along with the ever present Ayesha Hazarika, and he said that Corbyn must get rid of Hillary Benn and stamp his authority on the Labour Party. He said he thinks the public won't approve of Corbyn's Labour, but Corbyn has a mandate from his party to do it.

I disagree with Finkelstein. I think that a real leftwing Labour, unapologetic and proud and defiant of the media and the stooges, would win the public over because just as Trump has confounded all of the political class due to the public having had enough of them, it would be the same here.

'Sack the lot BTW? 1 MP'

Yes there is one MP, but lots of stooges undermining Farage. He should have the courage to get rid of the lot and promote only real Kippers that the UKIP People's Army approve of.

'The party could force a bye election in one seat.'

Fantastic. Let's see Farage start getting serious and let's see him stand in Clacton against ex-Tory and politically correct Carswell.

Clacton is in Essex, we don't like politically correct here, we like Farage. There would only be one winner.

Dugher, sacked. Gorn.